Mahogany wrote:

Tablets have absolute tracking whereas mice do not.

That is literally the only advantage gained by using a tablet

Everything else comes down to the individual's skills and own proficiency with each device.

Christ railey stop posting stupid shit please

I don't think that you understand my post.

Of course it comes down to peoples skill and proficiency with each device. That's only stating the obvious. What I am saying is the following:

People tend to be more proficient with tablets compared to mice. When playing the same time with mouse and tablet, they tend to perform better with a tablet. I never took a guess as to why exactly it is the way it is (absolute vs. relative tracking might play a major role). I just took some observational evidence into account and made an argument to refute the "it's just preference"-belief, which led me to the conclusion that tablets are generally better.

I think you need to work on your reading comprehension. You had some pretty weird things to say in the other thread too.

taiko is fun

you don't need mouse to play so it saves money B)

Railey2 wrote:

I never took a guess as to why exactly it is the way it is

10 minuspoints for misleading threadtitle then.

i didnt even read the thread but +1 postcount

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Mouse is a preference cause I'm a cheap ass hoe that doesn't want a tablet in addition to my gaming mouse

this

Here is a brief overview of your points you made to support the claim tablet is better than mouse:

1: The imbalance of tablet to mouse users among top players is too large to be a coincidence

A: Placebo effect, witch doctors and other false healers were insanely popular. Just because its popular doesn't mean it actually works. Its popular because everyone wants an edge and tablet is perceived to give that edge.

2: Sharp increase in skill after getting a tablet (Rohulk example)

A: I think that there was a sharp increase in skill not because he got a tablet but because "08.01.2015 - Started playing seriously"

3: Lack of reports where player play worse with mouse

A: This is best explained by an explanation I got off another mouse user on reddit

"I personally believe this is a motivation issue for a big part.
At some point all players hit a skill ceiling, and obviously they'd like to get past it. So, people start looking for ways to improve other than to "play more".
One of these attempts is switching to a tablet. When they do switch, regardless of whether or not they play better, they will keep playing with a tablet because they won't want to admit wasting money.
It also makes the game fun again, since it's a new challenge and something to learn, but not as frustrating as starting from scratch.
Forward a few weeks and they start improving, because they started playing more. This again makes them play more, because improving is fun.
Most top players will have gone through such an episode. That's why most top players play with a tablet."

4: Tablet and mouse are very different because the brain is a very complex system and its impossible to tell which is preferred

A: Not sure how this supports the objective of this post where the claim is that tablet>mouse. Yes they are very different especially when the brains perspective is concerned but what this thread is about is the skill advantage the peripherals give. They are different to the brain but indistinguishably close when it comes to skill ceiling. When people say its just preference I think they mean that you should use whatever feels more natural and this depends on what youve had more practice with in the past. For me its mouse because I've played waaaaaay too many video games on PC. For others its tablet because the pen is very similar to a pencil.

Final Note: Lets keep this discussion objective please, I liked Raileys last interesting thread but I couldn't be a part of it because it got locked.

Railey2 wrote:

You'd be the first person I know who tried to play with tablet for a long period of time and failed. It seems rather uncommon.

Add me to the list, 3 weeks and I still was far from my mouse skill level. People don't talk about it because there is shame associated with buying a peripheral you didn't improve with plus the community mentality that tablet is better.

It took me one month to get used to tablet. The worst thing in mices for me is the contact with desk/mousepad, it's really uncomfortable imo.

Houtarou Oreki wrote:

It took me one month to get used to tablet. The worst thing in mices for me is the contact with desk/mousepad, it's really uncomfortable imo.

My hand gets sore where it meets the surface of the desk for tablet too if I play long enough.

On a side note Angel Megumin has said he has the best aim out of all the top players. He also uses a mouse to aim, coincidence?

The pp of top plays from cookiezi and Rafis both came from higher OD rather than aim so it could be argued that currently mouse may not have the highest pp play but has the best play in terms of aim. However since the number of top players is such a small sample size you still cant say for certain that mouse is a better peripheral because of this.

I hope people doesn't flame and actually discuss, even against the point of the thread this time.

the thread is retarded imo, if someone can get to #1 using mouse then mouse players shouldnt be discouraged at all

Can someone lock this thread before it becomes a shit storm? Both are different ways of playing, there is no better or worse. Just better or worse players.

LoliPantsu wrote:

the thread is retarded imo, if someone can get to #1 using mouse then mouse players shouldnt be discouraged at all

This thread is better than 99% of the usual G&R threads because it actually provokes a discussion.

[XV] wrote:

Can someone lock this thread before it becomes a shit storm? Both are different ways of playing, there is no better or worse. Just better or worse players.

I don't think quality threads need to be locked if the flames haven't sprouted yet.

bappity boop

Lagel wrote:

[XV] wrote:

Can someone lock this thread before it becomes a shit storm? Both are different ways of playing, there is no better or worse. Just better or worse players.

It'll only become a shit storm with people purposefully intending to create a shit storm. OP has made a perfectly fine post and it invokes discussion, what's wrong with that in the G&R thread? Just because you're too immature to handle discussion and opinion doesn't mean a thread should be shut down.

Why type such an arrogant post? Your answer makes no sense. OP post is great, but you sure know how this is going to be a shitstorm on the comments. This community is great, but also is full of people who can't make a good discussion without memeing or start to insult.

Attacking a persons character e.g.

Lagel wrote:

you're too immature

[XV] wrote:

arrogant post

Is likely to evoke a personal response from the other person rather than encourage logical discussion so its best to edit these out before you post or this could turn into locked thread version 2. I don't care about not hurting peoples feelings or anything its just boring to read insults.

[XV] wrote:

Can someone lock this thread before it becomes a shit storm?

There has been plenty of mouse vs tablet threads that have been completely fine, I don't know how this one is any different.

I think you slightly misunderstood the word "preference" (or is it me? Idk)

Let me give you an example : Player A has been playing osu! for 3 years using mouse. Then he heard of this so-called tablet that is better than mouse from someone. He decides to try it out for a while. But he's just way too convenient with his mouse compared to the tablet he just bought. In the end, he decides to continue playing osu! with his mouse as he PREFERS mouse over tablet.

The example above is what I think "preference" is. Preference is like a choice when you already know the advantages and disadvantages of each choices. So, when someone says "it's just preference", that doesn't mean that tablet and mouse are the same because in the end, it comes back to the players themselves. Some people just like playing with mouse for various reasons, and even if they know that tablet is better, they still choose mouse because of those "various reasons", and you can say that they prefer mouse over tablet.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

TL:DR
I actually agree that tablet is slightly or way better than mouse, but it's still a preference. In the end, you have to choose between the two and if you choose mouse, that means you prefer mouse and vice versa

In the end it comes down to talent

F1r3tar wrote:

LoliPantsu wrote:

the thread is retarded imo, if someone can get to #1 using mouse then mouse players shouldnt be discouraged at all

This thread is better than 99% of the usual G&R threads because it actually provokes a discussion.

A shitty flamebaity discussion isn't any better than the shitposts that happen usually

Did not read OP because of terrible formatting. Is this some new drama again?

tl;dr i've played both tablet and mouse and to my experience some maps are easier with tablet and some are easier with mouse

Although it might just be in only my personal experience, spaced streams, consistency of movement and repeated jumps with sharp angles are usually easier with tablet, while things such as low ar, snapping, linear patterns, and in general the cleanliness of cursor movement are improvements that I feel when playing with mouse (maybe cause of polling rate but I wont go into why there are advantages). I can't put all of the advantages and disadvantages into words but from this I think everyone should realise that although tablet MIGHT (i stress might for some people - 'preference') be better for some people in certain aspects of the game ---> gaining PP because PP rain comes from jumps, acc, spaced streams, etc. that tablet excels at --- usually they will also suffer in other aspects of the game, which you will then excel at because of your choice of mouse over tablet. That's why mouse players (speaking really generally) will be better at some maps than tablet players assuming they have the same pp or 'skill' level, and of course the vice versa, as just stated would also true. Even to this day when I've switched to tablet I still find certain maps easier with mouse (because I used to be a mouse player), and certain maps I once fc'ed with mouse years ago I don't even think I can do today, despite how much pp I've gained with tablet

on a side note, tablet feels weird for me because reaching different parts of the tablet require different movements while you can just slide a mouse around on the same plane. Anyone else feel like this? O.o

don't take this out of context, i'm just stating my personal experiences with mouse and tablet; hopefully it might help someone reading it.

w

Arthraxium wrote:

Did not read OP because of terrible formatting. Is this some new drama again?

yes

beep boop

RunielVermell wrote:

In the end it comes down to talent playing more

Fixed

shortpotato wrote:

on a side note, tablet feels weird for me because reaching different parts of the tablet require different movements while you can just slide a mouse around on the same plane. Anyone else feel like this? O.o

Yeah I've had the feeling and found this super disorientating. When I switched back to mouse from using a tablet for ages the mouse moved in a totally different way than I expected. My brain probably mixed up the muscle memory of the 2 peripherals and it took a little while to adjust. The same happened when switching to tablet from mouse.

You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people of evident truths that they're too stupid to grasp in the first place. It's just wasted effort.

Mouse is basically a fat tablet pen. Make a tablet pen too fat, shape it into something that looks like a mouse and it already has the advantages/disadvantages of a mouse

But since this game is MOSTLY about control and not just mere speed (which is the advantage of a mouse), the one with lesser total surface area, weight, volume is always objectively superior (at least for this game) It's somewhat like the chopsticks; they shaped it to be not too thick (for more control over food regardless of size you want to pick up), not too thin (so the chopsticks have the bulk to support the food you picked up) and has long (or varied) reach for ease of eating. It's also like juggling balls; the optimal size and weight for a ball is to ideally make a single hand capable of immediately grabbing it and not some bloated one like basketball's and soccer's since it's too large and heavy. Not like it's impossible to do it but it's harder than juggling with something smaller.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

The pp of top plays from cookiezi and Rafis both came from higher OD rather than aim

lol

shortpotato wrote:

on a side note, tablet feels weird for me because reaching different parts of the tablet require different movements while you can just slide a mouse around on the same plane. Anyone else feel like this? O.o

I do, it's more like I need extra effort to do jump.
I keep playing with tablet for 2 years, now I good at nothing but stamina as a result.
I'd have switch back to mouse if I could.

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Mouse is basically a fat tablet pen. Make a tablet pen too fat, shape it into something that looks like a mouse and it already has the advantages/disadvantages of a mouse

You're ignoring a number of other features of mice and tablets with that statement.

Tablets are absolute positioning devices while mice are relative positioning devices. This likely wouldn't be a matter if there were mice with perfect sensors but even the best optical sensors have some perceivable level of inherent acceleration. This is what causes mouse drift and thus introduces another factor into one's consistency with a mouse.

Also, from what I've been able to glean from research into both tablets and mice, a good quality mouse will have lower input lag (about 2-4 ms) in comparison with a tablet (probably 15+ ms, specs for this are much harder to find and I don't have the hardware required to test this physically).

Tablet is superior to mouse but only because one reason: Absolute Positioning. The rest is all preference (grip, weight, size, etc.) The vast majority of top players prefer tablet due to reasons such as drift, form factor, market access, etc. that otherwise hinder their performance. Many of these factors are preference, except absolute positioning is an objective fact. Tablet cursor will always have a 1:1 movement ratio but mouse will not. This makes mouse SIGNIFICANTLY harder to master. AngeL still has to battle mouse drift but made it to #1 because he is just that damn good!

Angel uses high dpi so he can somewhat negate the mouse drift and inertia, the main disadvantages of using mouse. Yet most mouse players don't do well with high dpi. He is just an aberration.

I didnt read this thread but is it as dumb as the last one

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

I didnt read this thread but is it as dumb as the last one

Yeah

B1rd wrote:

Angel uses high dpi so he can somewhat negate the mouse drift and inertia, the main disadvantages of using mouse. Yet most mouse players don't do well with high dpi. He is just an aberration.

1000 dpi on 1152x864 isn't really that high tbh.
Slightly above average I'd say.
If anything helps him negating the disadvantages it's his kinda weird mousegrip that causes him to play not so much from the wrist and therefore not running into problems revolving around constantly switching your mouse-axis.

KupcaH wrote:

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

The pp of top plays from cookiezi and Rafis both came from higher OD rather than aim

lol

Fite me

B1rd wrote:

You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people of evident truths that they're too stupid to grasp in the first place. It's just wasted effort.

You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people to not use logic. It's just wasted effort

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Mouse is basically a fat tablet pen. Make a tablet pen too fat, shape it into something that looks like a mouse and it already has the advantages/disadvantages of a mouse

But since this game is MOSTLY about control and not just mere speed (which is the advantage of a mouse), the one with lesser total surface area, weight, volume is always objectively superior (at least for this game) It's somewhat like the chopsticks; they shaped it to be not too thick (for more control over food regardless of size you want to pick up), not too thin (so the chopsticks have the bulk to support the food you picked up) and has long (or varied) reach for ease of eating. It's also like juggling balls; the optimal size and weight for a ball is to ideally make a single hand capable of immediately grabbing it and not some bloated one like basketball's and soccer's since it's too large and heavy. Not like it's impossible to do it but it's harder than juggling with something smaller.

Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control. Combine this with a higher surface area in contact with the surface of your desk compared to a tablet pen and you get a peripheral that has roughly the same amount of control as a tablet.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control

So if I give you a chopsticks of 1km circumference, you'd be able to have more control over your food? Obviously not.
So if I give you a pentelpen and ask you to write your name of approximate 12mm standard font size, you'd be able to provide a satisfactory, hassle free result? Obviously not. Pentel pens are structured to discard control of where its ink will go with its increased ballpoint size compared to regular pens (ballpens, fountain pens etc.). Its purpose is just to mark which benefits more in size than precision that's why it's called a marker

I'll give you another clearer example just in case these already clear examples still isn't enough for you to stop with this false statement.

Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.

Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.

Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?

That's an interesting test. Tablet was harder because there's very little friction between my tablet and the pen nib. There's less consistency between the mouse drawn glyphs but I've spent years writing with a pen.