Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Gameplay & Rankings
  4. osu!catch

osu!catch ScoreV2 Discussion

posted
Total Posts
83
smoogipoo
osu!dev
514 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Hey all,

This might be a little bit too early (a whole 9 months), but here's goes nothing!

I've had a few people interested in discussing osu!catch ScoreV2 so I'm opening up a thread to collect the community's feedback. I'm interested in hearing your opinions about what you like/dislike about the current system and what you want out of the system so we can get it perfected before the next CWC.

THIS IS NOT FINAL
Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.

Here are a few facts/talking points about the current osu!catch ScoreV2 system:
  1. >90% of the score comes from combo, the <10% comes from tiny slider ticks.
  2. The percentage worth of tiny slider ticks is scaled by the ratio of tiny ticks to all other objects in the map.
  3. Bananas are worth a flat 350 points each.
  4. The mod multipliers are as follows: HR - 1.12x, DT - 1.06x, FL - 1.12x, HD - 1.06x
Basically, I'm willing to experiment trying different stuff so throw out any ideas you have. I'll be checking this thread periodically but don't expect me to reply to every comment or release any updates any time soon in an effort to not impact existing ongoing tournaments - however I'll try and get some sort of way to test it working.
And please _please_ don't spam me with PMs telling me to read a comment in here ;___;.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari
I'm a very silly person.
Last edited by Riari , edited 1 time in total.
smoogipoo
osu!dev
514 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Your ScoreV2 multipliers are for osu!std. osu!catch are as I listed.
Tonairu
96 posts
Joined August 2014
Tonairu

Riari wrote:

I'm a very silly person.
same tbh
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari
What do people think about scaling banana values similar to small droplet values?

Inside osu!catch spinning is not a mandatory action, the score is a bonus on top of what you get for playing the rest of the map.
Currently in ScoreV2, droplets scale up to 10% of a maps value and would naturally diminish their value in longer maps. Bananas on the other hand have a constant score value of 350 giving them a significant edge in the longer run.

I think that whilst high-end spinner plays are impressive, droplets are a core part of osu!catch scoring and should not be so heavily reduced in comparison to bananas.
I think that a score cap that is similar to what small droplets face right now for bananas would be helpful for competitive scores as it would allow accuracy to make a bigger impact on maps that contain spinners.



I also saw something over in the standard discussion thread where score could possibly be multiplied by your accuracy. I think this would work much better over here and give misses and droplets a much more competitive edge.
Krah
osu! Alumni
1,023 posts
Joined March 2012
Krah
Too lazy for a full post but just for the mods multiplier.
HD and DT shouldn't be a fixed multiplier
- HD become easier with high AR and actually a bunch of people can't even play high ar without hd (or even on all cwc maps aka ar8+). Just look for that the rules of the last cwc where people were allowed to pick hd on their dt/hr picks.
- DT is a pain on ar9+ and shouldn't be lower than hr in those cases.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

Krah wrote:

Too lazy for a full post but just for the mods multiplier.
HD and DT shouldn't be a fixed multiplier
- HD become easier with high AR and actually a bunch of people can't even play high ar without hd (or even on all cwc maps aka ar8+). Just look for that the rules of the last cwc where people were allowed to pick hd on their dt/hr picks.
- DT is a pain on ar9+ and shouldn't be lower than hr in those cases.
I think that HD is a crutch mod. The majority of people who play with the mod play with it as a requirement to play the game and are heavily rewarded for it because of the 1.06x multiplier. I personally like the way that visualization mods are treated in mania where they receive no multiplier. However, I think that Flashlight as a visualization mod is not a crutch and should be rewarded correctly.

DT and HR are polar opposites in terms of difficulty in their level. At lower levels, HR is the harder mod whilst DT is easier. As the difficulty ramps up, DT becomes the harder mod (AR has a influence on this, mainly due to the mapping meta of ~AR9) and HR is comparatively easier. Between the two I would rate DT higher personally as towards the higher end of play the scores become slightly more warped and see more interest from the community, though I do like the idea of a scaling multiplier as it would make things more accurate.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
later on in this thread i'm going to get together with some top players and make a giant wall of information and how things should be, may take some time tho, I'll write up a giant paper when i get around to it.


DT SHOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN HR

I can say this without even needing to consult any player.
koliron
791 posts
Joined July 2014
koliron

Krah wrote:

Too lazy for a full post but just for the mods multiplier.
HD and DT shouldn't be a fixed multiplier
- HD become easier with high AR and actually a bunch of people can't even play high ar without hd (or even on all cwc maps aka ar8+). Just look for that the rules of the last cwc where people were allowed to pick hd on their dt/hr picks.
- DT is a pain on ar9+ and shouldn't be lower than hr in those cases.

Fantasy wrote:

DT SHOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN HR
Totally agree, specially the last one, unfortunately in ar 5 and less DT is so much easier than HR, so is hard to say which multipier would be fine
Imo both sjould be +0.12, i mean i dont think HD HR deserves the same as DT HR D:

Btw FL should be +0.16 /run
Digitalfear117
39 posts
Joined July 2015
Digitalfear117
I also agree that DT should give more score than HR, mainly since I believe that scoring should reflect PP, where in most cases DT gives more PP than HR

But I don't think a simple switch is enough, here is what I personally think the mod multipliers should be:

HD 1.04
HR 1.08
DT 1.12
FL 1.12

Now I'm not sure what should be done on maps where the star rating is increased more by HR than DT, maybe there can be an exception and it can be switched on maps where this happens?

As for slider ticks, I think they should be worth a little more, since we currently have scores on the leaderboard that are beating SS's with C's (using the same mod combinations) because of better spins

Edit: I see we are not supposed to talk about star ratings and PP but I feel like it's hard to make my point without at least mentioning why I think it should be this way...
Kimitakari
Beatmap Nominator
1,533 posts
Joined August 2014
Kimitakari

Fantasy wrote:

DT SHOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN HR
Totally agree, not because of the score but the PP system either. The HR trains AR and low CS while DT will train AR and reflection. This is even better than other mods, for hidden im keep that in silence. Fantasy, Amlink, where are you guys?!

P.S. Hidden is OVERFLOWING the CtB system
P.S.S. Im not talking about the PP system here
Last edited by Kimitakari , edited 1 time in total.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan
DT 1.14x
FL 1.1x
HR 1.06x
HD 1.03x

DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD
I don't think it should be any other way as long as the multipliers are static and don't care about CS and AR. Maybe 1.12 DT if you want FLHD > DT
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

PakaChan wrote:

DT 1.14x
FL 1.1x
HR 1.06x
HD 1.03x

DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD
I don't think it should be any other way as long as the multipliers are static and don't care about CS and AR. Maybe 1.12 DT if you want FLHD > DT
FLHD>DT in your case as I think the multi-mod thing would still apply so FLHD would be 1.41x or whatever it is?

I may be confused but I'm sure that's a thing.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

Riari wrote:

PakaChan wrote:

DT 1.14x
FL 1.1x
HR 1.06x
HD 1.03x

DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD
I don't think it should be any other way as long as the multipliers are static and don't care about CS and AR. Maybe 1.12 DT if you want FLHD > DT
FLHD>DT in your case as I think the multi-mod thing would still apply so FLHD would be 1.41x or whatever it is?

I may be confused but I'm sure that's a thing.

1.1x1.03 = 1.133 < 1.14
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

PakaChan wrote:

Riari wrote:

FLHD>DT in your case as I think the multi-mod thing would still apply so FLHD would be 1.41x or whatever it is?

I may be confused but I'm sure that's a thing.

1.1x1.03 = 1.133 < 1.14
Mods are additive not multiplicative?
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

Riari wrote:

Mods are additive not multiplicative?
Note that when multiple mods are applied, the product of the score multipliers is given instead of the sum of them.
- https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Game_Modifiers

The numbers themselves shouldn't matter much, it's how much mods and mod combinations give compared to each other that matters.
Saying "DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD" is more usefull than giving some numbers imo.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

PakaChan wrote:

Riari wrote:

Mods are additive not multiplicative?
Note that when multiple mods are applied, the product of the score multipliers is given instead of the sum of them.
- https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Game_Modifiers

The numbers themselves shouldn't matter much, it's how much mods and mod combinations give compared to each other that matters.
Saying "DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD" is more usefull than giving some numbers imo.
Ah, I always took at as the game value and thought it was slightly higher because of double mods.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

Riari wrote:

What do people think about scaling banana values similar to small droplet values?

Inside osu!catch spinning is not a mandatory action, the score is a bonus on top of what you get for playing the rest of the map.
Currently in ScoreV2, droplets scale up to 10% of a maps value and would naturally diminish their value in longer maps. Bananas on the other hand have a constant score value of 350 giving them a significant edge in the longer run.

I think that whilst high-end spinner plays are impressive, droplets are a core part of osu!catch scoring and should not be so heavily reduced in comparison to bananas.
I think that a score cap that is similar to what small droplets face right now for bananas would be helpful for competitive scores as it would allow accuracy to make a bigger impact on maps that contain spinners.



I also saw something over in the standard discussion thread where score could possibly be multiplied by your accuracy. I think this would work much better over here and give misses and droplets a much more competitive edge.
You could also consider giving droplets a static score like how it's now except make it so it actually matters when compared to that of a banana. Right now 1 banana = 110 droplets, you could always just change things up to make it 1 droplet = 1 banana or 1 droplet = 3 bananas or 3 droplets = 2 bananas. Giving both a multiplier sounds messy and giving just one a multiplier makes it so we have 98% FC > SS on the leaderboard or +1 droplet, -20 bananas giving more score.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

PakaChan wrote:

Riari wrote:

What do people think about scaling banana values similar to small droplet values?

Inside osu!catch spinning is not a mandatory action, the score is a bonus on top of what you get for playing the rest of the map.
Currently in ScoreV2, droplets scale up to 10% of a maps value and would naturally diminish their value in longer maps. Bananas on the other hand have a constant score value of 350 giving them a significant edge in the longer run.

I think that whilst high-end spinner plays are impressive, droplets are a core part of osu!catch scoring and should not be so heavily reduced in comparison to bananas.
I think that a score cap that is similar to what small droplets face right now for bananas would be helpful for competitive scores as it would allow accuracy to make a bigger impact on maps that contain spinners.



I also saw something over in the standard discussion thread where score could possibly be multiplied by your accuracy. I think this would work much better over here and give misses and droplets a much more competitive edge.
You could also consider giving droplets a static score like how it's now except make it so it actually matters when compared to that of a banana. Right now 1 banana = 110 droplets, you could always just change things up to make it 1 droplet = 1 banana or 1 droplet = 3 bananas or 3 droplets = 2 bananas. Giving both a multiplier sounds messy and giving just one a multiplier makes it so we have 98% FC > SS on the leaderboard or +1 droplet, -20 bananas giving more score.
All modes seem to be going towards a capped score of 1,000,000 (Spinners as bonus) hence why the droplets can make up to 10% of that million and no more. It's more about limiting the values of bananas so they do not outstrip acc and make high acc slightly lower spins competitive with lower acc slightly higher spins.
Amlink
186 posts
Joined February 2014
Amlink
DT 1.12 FL 1.12 HR 1.06 HD 1.06 simple as that
RAMPAGE88
128 posts
Joined August 2010
RAMPAGE88
DT>HR
Last edited by RAMPAGE88 , edited 1 time in total.
Bunnrei
1,044 posts
Joined May 2011
Bunnrei
i think it should be dt > hr > hd or something (1.12x > (something inbetween) > 1.06x)

since in most cases dt is harder (getting used to higher platter speeds, chance of getting beyond ar10) compared to hr (it does make the map harder by increasing map stats and messing up the notes but it's not as fast-paced and straining as dt).

though in some cases hr ends up being harder than dt (like on cs7+ maps) but that's uncommon

and hd is a commonly used mod and is the easiest to learn in comparison to the other difficulty-increasing mods (imo) so it should stay as it is

(i didnt read most posts so idk if i just repeated what others said)
rostld
219 posts
Joined May 2014
rostld
where is ctb spunout
Bunnrei
1,044 posts
Joined May 2011
Bunnrei

Jimmy Rustler wrote:

where is ctb spunout
tru
MBomb
MBomb
I think people are heavily oversimplifying stuff in a way which is kinda inaccurate. At AR8.5+, DT will be harder than HR most of the time, I agree, but in cases where high CS and low AR are used (Or even in cases where it's just high CS), HR can end up being a lot harder, especially to get accuracy on, which would be a lot bigger part in this scoring system. However, a lot of people commenting on this thread are high end players, so these maps end up being irrelevant to them, which is why these points are being ignored, as high end players play high CS maps a lot less, for the most part.
He Ang CTB
549 posts
Joined March 2013
He Ang CTB
The current scores system is alright :O There are few short-comings but the new score system will also have short-coming but from the opposite end.
[Kami]
79 posts
Joined July 2012
[Kami]
You sould add this condition to the score

if AR>=9 then DT=1.13x else DT=1.06x

DT should be worth more than HR if the AR is really high like 10.3.
nya10
979 posts
Joined February 2012
nya10
I'm not really related to this, but a multiplier of a mod without a FreeMod bracket in the tournament (assuming this will be used only for o!CWC, or similiarly condition o!CWC tournament), the multiplier won't be do much, since you'll only be able to use 1 mod per bracket (+HD in DT and HR bracket), and I don't think in this case, HR and DT could be comparable. So the only thing to do is to adjust HD (judging from some people that has a better reading in HD than NoMod) into the correct multiplier without really debating how HR and DT compares.
DeletedUser_500696
DeletedUser_500696

nya10 wrote:

I'm not really related to this, but a multiplier of a mod without a FreeMod bracket in the tournament (assuming this will be used only for o!CWC, or similiarly condition o!CWC tournament), the multiplier won't be do much, since you'll only be able to use 1 mod per bracket (+HD in DT and HR bracket), and I don't think in this case, HR and DT could be comparable. So the only thing to do is to adjust HD (judging from some people that has a better reading in HD than NoMod) into the correct multiplier without really debating how HR and DT compares.
This is exactly what I was thinking, you can't use both DT and HR in the same pool so there is no reason to adjust those values. The only points of concern should be how much weighting HD gives with HR and DT. Personally I think HD shouldn't even be allowed in the DT and HR pools since it makes it easier for some people (like me)
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
give easy mod 1.06
Dianthus
162 posts
Joined November 2013
Dianthus
Talking about tournament settings here.

1. Make HD give 0.00x on non-HD maps on the tournament. Probably the easiest way would be to add Tournament HD (naming sense=0) as the second HD pick (just as NC is 2nd DT), THD gives 0.00x.
2. HD picks should be maps that actually get harder with it.
3. Bananas should have set value, as it currently is. This way banana gods will be rewarded as well.

FL: 1.12x
DT: 1.12x
HR: 1.06x
HD: 1.06x
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
Krah
osu! Alumni
1,023 posts
Joined March 2012
Krah

-Kurisu- wrote:

This is exactly what I was thinking, you can't use both DT and HR in the same pool so there is no reason to adjust those values.
Quite true but scoring should be directly valid in all possible tournaments so having DT and HR at the same time could be a thing cuz idk reasons or troll pool or reasons or just a dt pool where hr could be allowed in freemode. Not saying that it will happen in the cwc but it could happen in another random tournament that would like to use the v2 scoring.
I still think that dt should increase with ar and hd decrease and not just trying to randomly sort them and thinking there is only hard maps and the cwc with its ar8+ meta. Maybe something like :
DT : 1.06+(0.5*AR)
HD : 1.08-(0.5*AR)
With the AR being the one without any mods to avoid some useless complications.



Hedgeturtle wrote:

1. Make HD give 0.00x on non-HD maps on the tournament. Probably the easiest way would be to add Tournament HD (naming sense=0) as the second HD pick (just as NC is 2nd DT), THD gives 0.00x.
I actually asked for that the day the 2015 cwc rules were released and it wasn't possible at this time to simply calculate it. Hope it could be a thing now. (btw THD should give 1.00* not 0.00*)
Jasmine
103 posts
Joined April 2014
Jasmine

PakaChan wrote:

DT 1.14x
FL 1.1x
HR 1.06x
HD 1.03x

DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD
I don't think it should be any other way as long as the multipliers are static and don't care about CS and AR. Maybe 1.12 DT if you want FLHD > DT
i'm not agree with you for DT=FL+HD, i thinks FLHD is a LOT more harder than DT only

I thinks score multipliers need to care about CS and AR because for example HD on low AR (like AR6); AR6 HD is really more harder than AR6 HR/DT
(Don't forget EZ+HD is ONLY 0.53x)

And about EZ multipliers i thinks 1.00x is good because the map is not more easy, ofc AR and the CS is reduce with EZ but the most of time it's a lot MORE harder than no mods. ( EZ+DT 0.53x hahaha )
Laharl
1,391 posts
Joined January 2011
Laharl

Fantasy wrote:

give easy mod 1.06
Oh, come on.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo

Laharl wrote:

Oh, come on.
sorry for the spook
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 83