fieryrage wrote:
alright i'm just gonna throw my two cents in here in a sort of mod but not really
personally, the hitsounds are great except for the sliderslide sound during the slow parts -- the sort of scraping sound that it has going is pretty irritating on my ears. obviously not a huge issue in terms of rankability, but considering some sliderticks are "mapped" to hitsounds it'd probably be better just to replace it with something less irritating. or i could be the only one who thinks this and i'm just retarded, that works as well
00:12:429 (1) - you could get away with extending this slider to the blue tick, it'd kind of look pretty cool imo but your choice red tick for it can be good as well.
00:37:784 (5) - nc this, it's the only pattern like this that doesn't have this nc'd afaik nope, it's not the only one but one of the series.
the only issues i was really encountering during the first two kiai fast slider parts were the repeat sliders, really. the difficult part about those is basically because you're trying to read an entirely different slider for the first time (second time, technically), which leads to a lot of breaks. however, it's part of the map's gimmick and it only happens twice. they're still more than playable the way they are right now, though, if not entirely sightreadable to everyone.
no other comments on the in-between parts, those are good as they are at the moment (and i'm too lazy to skim for more nc issues if there even are any).
for the ending sliders (04:58:881 (1) - to about 05:20:558 (1) - or whatever around that area) these are perfectly playable except 05:11:268 (1) - which is really the only "confusing" slider on sightread, mainly due to this area of the slider. if you don't believe me this is my sightread of the map. skip to about five minutes for the part i'm talking about. saying these sliders are unplayable is pretty clearly wrong, with that one exception i mentioned (which even then isn't a bad thing, do you seriously expect to sightread fc a map like this first try?). but then again, everyone's able to do different things; maybe some people managed to sightread that slider but not the others. who knows. point being, just because it's unplayable to you does not mean it's unplayable for everyone else. and if you say "oh but the slider's too fast it breaks ranking critiera and its ugly!!" like some people are apparently saying, then you might as well unrank this and this then (the former actually has more fast sliders than this map, by the way). no one should expect anyone fc the map at 1st try for it's in extra level, also all sliders in last kiai are in same style as the whole map's.
for a last point 05:48:042 (5,1) - sliderend of 5 doesn't overlap perfectly and i got triggered sory 4 nazi
yeah. that's about it. the map's definitely grown on me a lot since i first looked at it. looking forward to seeing the inevitable shitstorm post-qualification.
to Zel: you know that it's the map decide the star rating of difficulty, not the opposite. if you wanna fit the star rating to underrated maps, you should call dev to develop the judging system.-GN wrote:
add "wailing lamenting hell music" to tags? it's the translation of the title and the only thing i remember about the song for there's no official or acknowledged translation to the title, i decide not add those to tags... thanks for this advice anyway :3
e: lol next post, you don't know how to play it =/= unplayable. know your damn limits
thou i didn't get anything to fix, thanks for cariing this map.WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:
I am just wondering why the sliders end on strong beats for no reason, this is just mindfucking.
04:16:300 (2,3) - 04:17:558 (2,4) -
Why are some of these like this, this just plays HORRIBLY. because i'm not following main drum or vocal track here, maybe you can find out why here and why there in that way next time.
I like the fast sliders but jesus atleast if you make them make the parts between them actually flow well into those not gimmicky random placement. Like 03:47:461 (4,1) - That makes no sense, and is flowing horribly into that fast slider. idk why you mention this but pattern like this is a really common one in lots of maps.
03:53:848 (1,1) - Not a perfect blanket but ot what is of concern. Why would it be that instead of the rhythm that was used before? which "before" you cared actually is consistent to other kiai's rhythm in same style.
03:58:687 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - This whole part just doesn't flow well and is more prone to sliderbreaks than the fast sliders, what was the thought behind this apart from making it look neat? i think you don't get this: well flow ≠ good. using anti-flow to emphasis beats or patterns is also a common way in mapping expressing music, fluent flow may well flowed but failed to make the map following music. you can see so much example in other maps but you just didn't understand that.
I'll mod this thoroughly soon..
is this the first time you look at a HW" map? :pZel wrote:
Considering its a 5* song the sliders are just unfitting and unexpected, they don't belong in this difficulty.
My point being is that the whole map is barely exceeding 5 stars while the sliders in the kiai are upwards of 6* to aim. It doesnt fit, if you want to keep the sliders in kiai then make rest of map harder.Hollow Wings wrote:
to Zel: you know that it's the map decide the star rating of difficulty, not the opposite. if you wanna fit the star rating to underrated maps, you should call dev to develop the judging system.
Change "slider" to "hitcircle" and you suddenly have an argument against all of those modern tv size maps. There is a reason for people to emphasize things, and this is how hollow wings decided to do it.Zel wrote:
My point being is that the whole map is barely exceeding 5 stars while the sliders in the kiai are upwards of 6* to aim. It doesnt fit, if you want to keep the sliders in kiai then make rest of map harder.
stryver12 wrote:
CLSW wrote:
People don't hate to change, just people are afraid to change.
Zel wrote:
My point being is that the whole map is barely exceeding 5 stars while the sliders in the kiai are upwards of 6* to aim. It doesnt fit, if you want to keep the sliders in kiai then make rest of map harder.
It just doesnt mesh well together for the whole map to be so easy then suddenly very hard.
Release Notes for b20160723 (Stable): Make slider difficulty more conservative by only accounting for slider ticks, reverse arrows, and slider ends.The only annoying sliders are the criss-crossy ones such as the slider at 05:01:977 (1), they just look like giant potatoe criss-crosses covering the screen.
don't you think it's really common that a diff can contain really hard and really easy patterns at same time? every map is doing that, because songs require it. how easier part for low tension and harder part for heated kiai is not acceptable? i'm getting confused that you'll doult obvious things like this.Zel wrote:
My point being is that the whole map is barely exceeding 5 stars while the sliders in the kiai are upwards of 6* to aim. It doesnt fit, if you want to keep the sliders in kiai then make rest of map harder.
It just doesnt mesh well together for the whole map to be so easy then suddenly very hard.
thanks guys, and still waiting for next progress.QMoaey wrote:
Did the sliders get easier after the update?Release Notes for b20160723 (Stable): Make slider difficulty more conservative by only accounting for slider ticks, reverse arrows, and slider ends.The only annoying sliders are the criss-crossy ones such as the slider at 05:01:977 (1), they just look like giant potatoe criss-crosses covering the screen.
Those would be better if with a more defined form (shapes that don't cover the entire screen) with more curvy tracks, such as the one at 05:08:171 (1), that one was pretty good. they are just in different way expressing tracks, and defined form style is not like easier than criss-crosses ones. actually, in exact tests from lots of testers, more broke their combos at 05:08:171 (1) than at 05:01:977 (1), because closer tracks in reading may give more stalbe aiming playability than fast single straightforward sliders crossing the whole screen, pre-read the track of those sliders is really important as you saw, then how you can state that "conservative designed" sliders is conservative? i did ask tons of tests to insist patterns like that.
Depends on who introduce that change and what kind of changeCLSW wrote:
People don't hate to change, just people are afraid to change.
thanks for modding!!Pho wrote:
Found some time after exams o/ i'm so stupid to forget checking the thread and delay this feedback for over 5 days ;w;
[General][Notch Hell]
- SB is cool, but with the degree of awareness you need to follow these slidertracks in the kiais it's hard to enjoy fully outside autoplay mode (at least for me) :c welll, i think not all of storyboard are really helpful for playing, actually most of them effect playability very much and that's why nearly all of players will block the storyboard when they truely wanna play it and even get some high score on the board. so i think that's not quite a problem to give some flash brust in storyboard anyway.
Of course, take these just as what they are - advices. I tried to stay objective from the view of a relatively mediocre player who struggles with the map. Just give me a good reasoning for the things mentioned above and I'd gladly push this forward. Good luck! YOU ARE SOME KIND OF PRO MODDER TO ME. my fav modder list can have an additional name here now.
- This map focuses on precise movement control and readability skills via fast complex-shaped sliders. Really makes for an interesting gameplay experience.
There are a few sections where I feel the map is somewhat unfair though, and where it could be refined to avoid rage-inducing sliderbreaking:
02:00:816 (1,2,3) - I think you could slightly lower the distance here. It forces a rather high movement to the upper-left and then immediately following the upcoming slider that goes in almost opposite direction.
I believe decreasing spacing by just a slight amount (0.7xDS instead of 0.9xDS) would make it more manageable. sure thing, changed the slider's shape a bit to shorter distance to about 0.7x here.- 02:13:977 (3,4) - Potential candidate for unfair sliderbreaking. Movement in extremely sharp angles and the high spacing between 02:13:977 (3,4) - forces the player to leave 3 earlier to set on 4 quick enough.
The upcoming back-and-forth movement between 02:14:461 (4,1,2) - makes this even worse. I believe making it flow more naturally here while still maintaining sharp angles between the objects for emphasis would be a better option here: thou i can just partly agree with you, but for you really know why i set that jump with anti-flow to emphasis shifted beats from vocal (which i am really appreciated to), i decide to follow your advice and change the flow to fluent one. your idea is awesome and just like what i wanna do to change that pattern, i'll fix it to kind of that, a bit different to your version thou.- 02:26:848 (4,1) - Similar as above. A bit better to handle but still unfair spacing. Try to decrease the spacing between both sliders a bit more (reduce to ~1.4xDS): true, changed, but with the slider 4 reversed so that the flow may be better to fit the decrease part in tension here.
- 03:43:010 (3) - If this slider would go down a bit more to catch the momentum from 03:42:913 (2,3) - instead of going up right away it'd be really helpful to not break the combo. well for the consistant setting at 01:51:526 (3) - and 04:57:332 (3) - with other complex jumps, i think here's the better choice do same setting here. and for this part itself, new combo didn't effect the reading here so much, besides new combo actually started the new vocal track in another kind of way. so about this i choose no change.
- 04:05:364 (2,3) - Similar as above, this comes right after heavy-spaced 1/4 spacing and leads into a sharp 90° movement: well, detaily for this, i think the sharp movements can help players aiming and catching the rhythm than fluent ones. here the patterns has really complex composing with notes overlapped at 04:04:687 (1,2) - and the 1/4 jumps are really big. players may get focus on where's the next objects really carefully than just tapping to what the cursor should go. and in really nervous short time the 90° movements really helped to let players know where they really aimmed and hit, then, told them when and which way they should start to moving and tapping in a new kind of direction. it's just like the simple trick everyone used for anti-flows or reverse objects to emphasis beats or sounds, this is similar to that imo. so still keep this because i think it works better than every other patterns here.
- 04:06:138 (1) - Could you move this more to the left side of 04:05:461 (3) - ? I feel this is better to handle for players hmm ok, moved to shorter the ds at 04:06:138 (1,2) - to 0.8x.
- 04:40:881 (4,5) - Would push this a bit more down, the antiflow between 04:40:881 (4,5,1) - isn't great with 1/4 beats and allowing a small angle would improve gameplay: well i can agree with your version worked good here, but i still wanna insist my version because the flow at 04:40:977 (5,1) - is still an anti-flow after 04:40:687 (3,4) - even in your version. players would be very concentrated on the movement here to aim those notes carefully, anti-flows help them a lot. and another tiny reason here is just organization is locked and spacing or composing seems better to me with current version here lol.
- 04:58:881 - So I've been playing this section a few dozen times to see how valid it is for ranking and I guess we can give it a try. thank you very much.
Personal statement for whoever caresI'm sure you know of the rule concerning slider readability:
"Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous (including "burai sliders") cannot be used. This is so that no slider has an appearance that is confusing or impossible for the player to read."
The words 'ambiguous' and 'confusing for the player to read' are the main point here. The sliders themselves, as stated many times here already, have a clear and visible path.
The problem for me and probably many other players is: The sliders are not confusing to read per se, but in the middle of playing the map, they are. (as a decent amount of time is necessary to analyze the heavy-overlapping slidertracks so you can follow it)
You have to memorize the slidertracks and even then it's hard to follow them sufficiently without break.
Seems like quite some higher-rank players are able to manage it though and I agree that the tracks are playable - so i give them the benefit of a doubt. Sometimes I wish I were better at this game orz- 05:31:397 (1,2,3,4) - I just found it odd that these sliders had no anchors with them compared to previous similar sections where they do (02:24:042 - , 04:15:526 - ). Kind of contorts the integrity of the map, they seem misfitting. yeah you are right (and you really good observer omg), i did that with different style sliders for the last kiai with higher tension, just like what i've did to those long sliders following vocals, differed from 1st and 2nd kiai's ones as well. so i think that'll be no problem, thou it's still lack of some reason why i use that kind of slider here, it's just like i would focus on "changing" or "shifting" to express the changing and shifting in the song i was following, and on the other hand, after really long track sliders' challenging, i think players should have some bit rest by releasing themselvs from those irregular sliders, that can be the real deep reason i set sliders in common curved style just here in this map.
Zetera wrote:
I'd like to state something about this map, since there are still things that, I feel, make this map unrankable.
First off, your idea of using noises produced by fire as a sliderslide is impressive, but the sound itself lacks of quality. It feels like the sound was cropped to only use the heights of the sound, ignoring the bass. all sliderslide's sounds are follow your "ignoring the bass" as well, maybe you shall ban them all before doubt mine.
Also, the storyboard is killing my freshly upgraded computer, simply because it uses so many files to resemble the graphemes you used for the lyrics. Isn't there a simpler way of forming those? Possibly by using 1 file for one symbol? I bet you would still achieve a fire-like style through using the right utensils to draw them. storyboard is some kind of related rare things to playing itself, if it distrub you so much then just enable "ignore storyboard" setting, or just delete the whole storyboard files. i can't find more easier idea than current ones to express "fire-like" spares, for the sb work is already done, i'll just keep the sb like this.
Furthermore, I'd like you to adjust the shapes of the quick sliders a little. The mere speed of those sliders in the kiais already poses an enormous difficulty spike, and to aid the player with following the slider, I don't think it is enough to keep a low tickrate. don't you think give additional sliderticks make the map more difficult and those sliders more "spike"? On the one hand, there are sliders that use an intuitive track, nicely playable because of their shape not being too extravagant (such as 02:20:945 (1) - because it can be played like a simple curve or 02:11:655 (1,2,3,1) - because of their cohesive flow. On the other hand, some sliders are either not using said principles and are therefore not nice to follow (examples: 02:14:752 (2) - because it breaks the priorly used clockwise oval flow very sharply; 03:44:558 (1) - because of the sudden horizontal speed increase (caused by the widescreen resolution); 02:08:558 (1) - 04:06:235 (2) - because of their numerous direction changes; 04:21:719 (1) - because it is very pointy and the individual spikes have sliderticks in them). However, the biggest problem are these sliders that overlap multiple times during the last kiai. They may look better than the others, but given the fact that there are so many tracks next to each other, it is hard to keep track of where to go next. Combined with the speed of those sliders, it creates an unpleasant experience playing these sliders. I am specifically addressing the following sliders:
05:01:977 (1) - after hitting the bottom left corner, the track of this slider suddenly becomes more horizontal, breaking the flow created by the previous notches. Possibly, if the tracks were further apart and the last bit of the slider was more vertival, it would be easier to follow. Also, making the slider overlap itself less adds to better playability. i don't see any obvious differences between your idea and mine. they are sliders complex to follow of course, for it's not following beats at angles or tricks or overlaps, flows will effect nearly nothing while playing slider like this. if you wanna mention the exact point of slider's shape follow the music, then i've explain the answer in previous mods. and if you doult of the playability of the slider itself, i wanna tell that if you got some aiming skill, you will find the differences you've mentioned here is just like "move a bit left or not".
05:08:171 (1) - The only thing confusing me is the beginning of the second half of this slider, since I think the upper left triangle leads immediately upwards and then later downwards, which obviously doesn't make sense, but it feels like that would happen when I scan the slider. i don't really understand the sense you wanna make. here again, if you wanna tell something about the slider's shape, you will get the answer as above imo.
05:11:268 (1) - I somehow expect this slider to lead into the upper right corner first, since it would catch the dropoff a lot nicer combined with the previous circles. However, after following this one multiple times, I could agree with it going to the left. Instead, the problem lies within what you see when you hit the slider. there is something going around the head, and these tracks are processed prior to the part that is actually following the head. What I mean is that I see the stuff on the right side and I know how to follow it, but first I have to focus on where to go on with the left half before I can go to the bit that I have already understood. And since the left half is quite complex, this always leads to a sliderbreak or even a fail.
05:20:558 (1) - The one overlap that this slider has is ambiguous, it is not clear for me whether I need to go down first or go left first. Eradicating the overlap is the easiest and quickest solution.
Lastly, there is this one rhythmical error I find peculiar. 03:09:526 (3) - Are you sure you want to follow the lyrics here? There is this one sound at 03:09:623 - that you might want to emphatise instead.
It is debatable whether the other sliders are fine, but I feel like those are the ones you still need to put attention to in order to make this map become not redundantly difficult. scanned the followed mods and nearly same to previous two so i just generally give feedback here for them: the slider's track, ofc it expressed the slider's shape, are always decided by mappers to choose which to use. do you think the mapper would exactly explain why he use straight slider here and curve slider there even for same pattern in the song? well, the answer is like what i've said before. you care the slider's track too much and didn't realise that the slider's shape do is a way of expressing the song, but not the only way or the way ought to be followed as always. maybe you can check those people give mods in previous pages, i know the general doult but it's like not really a good reason to bend the idea of those sliders: they are sliders follow the vocal track, however you say it just did it's job very well. thanks for the detail checking of the map's sliders, but the grand direction of point is some kind of deviated.
Good luck!
thanks for modding!Koiyuki wrote:
some nazi mod
I feel the map breaks star rating again and will burn the community lol
for me it's a quite impressive and creative map
when you play this, the most problem of this map is reading
in fact you havent need to follow the silder at all, just follow the ticks
but it need the test of time and practice of players..
Notch Hellrip my 2kds, and hw please reply Zetera's mod so I can go on. ok.
- 00:16:881 (2) - remove whistle? 不要啊OVQ
- 00:21:042 (6,2) - nazi stack fixed, thou i think there'll be always bugs occured like this... orz
- 00:46:881 (3) - nc? 可。
- 01:11:655 (3) - ^ ^
- 02:07:880 (5) - nc fixed.
- 02:10:977 (5) - ^ ^
- 02:19:397 (1,2) - 2的蓝线开始也不合vocal啊，不如3/4 slider+ 1/2 slider的组合 哦这边并不是在跟vocal而是要转入吉他路线了，这个更主要是让后面的那些蓝线作个铺垫，这边很多人跟我说跟vocal好不过我是坚持认为这边的吉他比vocal更需要表现的。
- 02:24:816 (2,3) - 02:25:590 (1,2) - 02:26:364 (3,4) - 都是这样，后面也是，一个滑条跟vocal开始一个滑条又不跟，我是觉得打起来感觉会不太好，vocal跟彻底点呗 这边是N个人跟我提我还是没改的地方。。。理由同上。这边滑条我感觉即使我要全部改成只跟吉他也不会改成只跟vocal的。
- 03:03:139 (3) - nc? 可。
- 03:44:364 (5,1) - 红点没拉到位吗？ 这边的位置倒是没什么特别的意义，没有特别想把5叠在滑条身子的边缘，我当时的想法是差不多放在那个拐弯稍微靠中线一点的地方就可以了。
- 03:59:364 (5) - 04:02:461 (5) - nc ^，其实本来不想改的毕竟这边nc都是根据梗的情况来决定是否要切梗而家的nc，不过既然那么错综不齐的话果然还是都加上吧。
thanks for offering another version of fire's flaming sounds, thou your version has a really loud base track sounds like winds blowing which really make the pitch of those waves heavy, and can't hear those flame's sounds with small things crack (which i think should be this hitsound's main part) more clear than my version. so i choose insist my version instead of yours. thou my version has a light pitch, it's more appropriate to fit other hitsounds of my hitsound system imo.phaZ wrote:
that slider-slide should be the sound of fire D:? i couldnt recognize it as one (propably because theres no bass in that sound?) lol.
maybe at least try this one out for once: http://puu.sh/qSC6P/ed2fcda512.wav
it is way more fitting imo. for someones taste it may be a bit too loud, or a has to few high sounds in it, but it still seem to head into the right/better direction for a fire sound. you can still edit/mix it after all
