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What's your honest thoughts about pp relating to skill?

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Sup A Noob
555 posts
Joined November 2009
Sup A Noob
My honest sentiments not relating to topic: PP matters until you become obsessed with gaining it.

On topic: While I do run an osu! series consisting of my live plays called "PP DOESN'T MATTER!" on YouTube, I feel that the current system is the best there is at the moment for measuring skill level. Unless peppy decides to employ what others here have already mentioned, machine learning, which for that matter is ridiculously complicated AI, or a completely new way to measure map difficulty, that is.

Though, in terms of the nitty gritty where more PP is awarded for jumpier maps than streamier maps, I haven't really noticed that, because I was too busy having fun and enjoying the music that comes my way.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Streamy maps award tons of pp what are you talking about
Barusamikosu
1,100 posts
Joined July 2014
Barusamikosu
High BPM stream underrated tho
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Barusamikosu wrote:

High BPM stream underrated tho

And yet they still give a lot
Setsuna
216 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Setsuna

Barusamikosu wrote:

High BPM stream underrated tho
StephOsu
1,216 posts
Joined February 2015
StephOsu
can't get pp without full combo :^)
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
sigh

In a system where the value comes from whatever is created, the creators will adapt to make creations which yield the highest value for them. Just give something to base a value off, and you bet somebody is going to find a way to milk the shit out of it. There are two ways to fix that really, and I think most know what they are.

Fix the damn system or do away with it completely.
Easier said than done, so let's just deal with what we have. As bad as it may be, it can and was much worse.

Also regarding to modern day pattern use in maps that dont abuse the SR system to huge proportions (30 second maps?), the system may overweigh lots of easy things, but how I see it, quality is getting better. If the system was made for maps in the 2012 era and the system now sees easy maps as hard, then I think that's saying that we are learning to map "hard" patterns such that they are easy to do. If you really are so butthurt about maps being overweighed, restrict yourself to pre 2012 mapping and have fun.
dung eater
2,391 posts
Joined December 2013
dung eater
it is okay. you'd need some kind of neural network/machine learning approach to get actually good results.
The Gambler
1,304 posts
Joined September 2013
The Gambler

Sup A Noob wrote:

My honest sentiments not relating to topic: PP matters until you become obsessed with gaining it.
Sums up my feelings very well... Cheers to being stuck at 20k-ish
Minhtam
550 posts
Joined September 2014
Minhtam
Honestly, PP doesn't matter. If you can't prove that you can perfectly play every map, then you are not good enough at this game.

Ergo, nobody is good enough at this game.
EtienneXC
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
115 posts
Joined January 2015
EtienneXC

Khelly wrote:

blahblahblahblah we've seen this topic many times before blah blah blah it's just made by people who don't have pp wanting verification that they do have skill or some shit

EtienneXC wrote:

You're making a points system based on combo.

There's your first mistake.
Coming from someone who doesn't play standard that's a huge statement there you're making, bub. Or maybe it's shit for me to expect non-players of the mode to have accurate and good opinions. ahahaha


I don't need to be a five-star chef to know if a meal tastes good or not. I don't need to be a top osu player to know that their pp system sucks shit either.







bub
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
That's a terrible analogy and you should feel ashamed. You could use it to apply to anything you don't have skill or experience in in this world.
EtienneXC
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
115 posts
Joined January 2015
EtienneXC
Eh, it was the only one I could think of. My bad if you didn't get it.

All I'm saying is that a score shouldn't be rendered useless if you miss in the middle of a song.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

EtienneXC wrote:

Eh, it was the only one I could think of. My bad if you didn't get it.

All I'm saying is that a score shouldn't be rendered useless if you miss in the middle of a song.

I think that in a combo based game such as standard, it's perfectly fine. Standard isn't a pure rhythm game - it's heavily aim focused. If you calculated pp from accuracy alone in standard then basically you get a situation where you can have a long easy song that someone only fucks up at the hard part but gets all the pp from said map because it was ~mostly~ easy.

*cough* Mania

And honestly, if everyone's has to have the same requirement for getting pp - nearly fcing or fcing a map - then I still don't see the problem when it comes to ranking. It also gives more reason to play and replay maps you can fc for improvement until you finally do get the fc. PP is hard to get and has a low threshold for error - you must nearly fc the map.

I don't have a problem with that.
Last edited by Yuudachi-kun , edited 1 time in total.
_handholding
3,109 posts
Joined April 2014
_handholding

EtienneXC wrote:

Eh, it was the only one I could think of. My bad if you didn't get it.

All I'm saying is that a score shouldn't be rendered useless if you miss in the middle of a song.
play taiko. The score multiplier from combos is capped so you can break a combo and still earn a firetruck amount of pp (most of my top scores in taiko arent fcs)

I do think that if the same was for std it would be incredibly broken for reasons I'm too lazy to write an essay on
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Tfw all of my mania pp comes from 4 star low acc plays that have 50 misses cause pp seems to be multiplied by star rating so if I can get an A on a hard map then loads a pp

Dan ranking is cooler
EtienneXC
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
115 posts
Joined January 2015
EtienneXC

Khelly wrote:

Tfw all of my mania pp comes from 4 star low acc plays that have 50 misses cause pp seems to be multiplied by star rating so if I can get an A on a hard map then loads a pp

Dan ranking is cooler

Don't even get me started on mania's pp system...

To be fair, it's not necessarily the pp system itself, but the star rating algorithm for mania that destroys it.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Khelly wrote:

And honestly, if everyone's has to have the same requirement for getting pp - nearly fcing or fcing a map - then I still don't see the problem when it comes to ranking
If you are looking from an "FC or gtfo" standpoint, yes, there is no problem. However, not everything is that black and white. The problem is the worth of a pattern. Currently, combo makes it so the same pattern will be worth less in the beginning than at the end when FC'd. In the combo based scoring system, a miss in the middle of the map puts the worth of all patterns proceding to almost nothing. A map designed such that there is a difficulty spike in the beginning or end will have a tendency to award more players high pp than a map designed such that there the same difficulty spike is at the middle. Even though their star difficulty is the same, map design can allow players to amount a higher combo and allow players get more pp for something that is valued wrongly

The combo based scoring system is literally a bottleneck. Where you put that bottleneck determines the map's worth while still claiming to be of equal worth no matter where you put the bottleneck. And just to be fair, accruracy is also not the way to go due to reasons you mentioned.
StephOsu
1,216 posts
Joined February 2015
StephOsu
unfortunately there's not really a whole lot we can really do about that
kurodahatsuharu
116 posts
Joined June 2013
kurodahatsuharu
change score system combo from multiply the pattern into bonus score will help to change the system. Example, when you hit 50 combo, plus 500 points, 100 plus 1000 points etc... So even if you break the combo you still get a higher chance to pass a FC's play if they have extremely low acc.
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
I Give Up
PP represents the player's exact level of skill! Said no-one ever.
Sayorie
975 posts
Joined December 2014
Sayorie
Scorev2 on solo mode when?
Setsuna
216 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Setsuna

Arthraxium wrote:

Scorev2 on solo mode when?
Oh hell no that's even worse ;w;, but on a side note, i love abraker's point that I completely missed to write about
StephOsu
1,216 posts
Joined February 2015
StephOsu

Setsuna wrote:

Arthraxium wrote:

Scorev2 on solo mode when?
Oh hell no that's even worse ;w;, but on a side note, i love abraker's point that I completely missed to write about
wouldn't think that it's worst though
but still, nothing much would change other than it's harder to get good acc IMO
Caenis
112 posts
Joined July 2014
Caenis
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Last edited by Caenis , edited 1 time in total.
Risa
435 posts
Joined January 2014
Risa
i believe that skill is needed to enjoy game while pp isn't

but from what i observe majority look at it the other way round
dung eater
2,391 posts
Joined December 2013
dung eater
you could fix the combo pp for std by having combo weighting tables for all maps that take difficulty spread inside the map into account
_handholding
3,109 posts
Joined April 2014
_handholding

KukiMonster wrote:

PP represents the player's exact level of skill! Said no-one ever.
It doesn't have to be exact

It certainly is a good indication, like would you say 90% of 2.5k pp players aren't generally better than 1.8k pp players?

If anyone says that the pp system is a bad indication then well, maybe I should start to argue that hvick, rafis, and cookiezi don't deserve to be top 3
Sayorie
975 posts
Joined December 2014
Sayorie

Ezonie wrote:

i believe that skill is needed to enjoy game while pp isn't

but from what i observe majority look at it the other way round
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