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[New Guideline] Irrelevant Backgrounds

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Total Posts
60
Zerss
730 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Zerss
Hello everybody!~

Lately, a beatmap was disqualified because of an illogical background (link: p/4777926).

Well, we can say that the disqualify could be understood if there would be any rules about it; actually, we don't have any clarifications about what can and what cannot do a mapper while choosing his background.

That's why adding a rule (written better than this huh?) about it can be nice:
  1. Trial 1: A beatmap should use relevant materials (such as backgrounds) to the song and it should represent the music itself, otherwise, the beatmap could be misunderstood.
  2. The background of your mapset should be related somehow with the source, lyrics, title or other contexts the song can be related to, otherwise, the background will be judged case by case until all of the participating BNs are agreeing with the current background. Abstract background can be used if no relevant backgrounds are available.
Loctav talked about some mapsets that can be touched by this rule, such as jieusieu's background that he's using for his Lemur's diffs, or even the nightcore's lolis that was first implemented by Andrea. So much other mapsets can be touched by this guideline, and even though this guideline isn't official yet, beatmaps can already be unranked for that.

Well, we still not sure what can and what cannot do a mapper, and even though which documents are affected (and what about storyboards? even hitsounds?), so I'll let the community discuss about it :3
Last edited by Zerss , edited 5 times in total.
Bara-
11,955 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Better make it a hard rule, as DQs can happen over it (and they also happen). But I agree with this, I always disliked the illogical BGs
HappyRocket88
4,321 posts
Joined May 2014
HappyRocket88
I'm a witness of recent DQ's because irrelevant bgs. I dislike the fact you stated it as a guideline, as Baraatje said, it should be a new rule.
Zerss
730 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Zerss
Okay, it's stated as a rule now~
Voli
811 posts
Joined April 2013
Voli
hello


Weird rule in my opinion as associations are subjective. For example if you would map the song Pendulum - Watercolor, would this be a relevant background because it is watercolor paint?

here

Some would say yes and some would say no, making this a rule would require you to draw a line somewhere, and the problem is that line varies per mapper, per song and per artist.

That makes "representing the song accurately" a vague rule to go by too, since who is to judge what represents a song accurately? There are ranked beatmaps of the same song mapped very differently, because the mappers chose to present the song in different lights.

Even if this gets added it should be a guideline rather than a rule, as you cannot enforce something so ambiguous.

k
Last edited by Voli , edited 4 times in total.
Zerss
730 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Zerss
Well, that's why I started the discussion, to "define" these "lines".

For me, this background would be ok since it has a background correspondent to the title; well, even though it's not really flagrant, it still have a common point with the song itself.
HappyRocket88
4,321 posts
Joined May 2014
HappyRocket88
I might say also the way you phrased it as a rule isn't really uniform. It would be better to clarify that the BG should be related somehow with the source, lyrics, title or other contexts the song can be related to.
XinCrin
2,846 posts
Joined January 2012
XinCrin
Oh yes please I'm tired of unnecesary anime BGs in songs
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
Do we really need to control what mappers use as their backgrounds? There are enough rules already, this is just unnecessary. Let people choose what they want. Of course Loctav would DQ for something like that.
HappyRocket88
4,321 posts
Joined May 2014
HappyRocket88

B1rd wrote:

Do we really need to control what mappers use as their backgrounds? There are enough rules already, this is just unnecessary. Let people choose what they want. Of course Loctav would DQ for something like that.
This exactly the aptitude we're trying to avoid. What's the point of choose any bg if it's going to be DQ'ed for irrelevant bg chose? The idea is those new mappers that don't know what to choose can know the bg should be related to the beatmap source /lyrics / anything context of the song. The idea is to avoid such as unnecessary DQs and allow mappers and modders realize the important fact to choose a proper BG for their maps.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
dude don't make it a rule
judging the appropriateness of a background is subjective unless it's something outright dumb.
I agree that Background should be relevant but limiting people to relevant things only can be pretty dumb when the actual theme etc doesn't provide any relevant material that looks nice or something (I'm having that problem with a lot of instrumental music i mapped and apparently accidentally chose a Touhou-related BG because it was the best pick available)
Also what's considerable to be appropriate or inappropriate differs from person to person (hints at anime op maps with uhh irrelevant anime bgs such as xxdeathx's somewhat famous set because there was not any decent bg material available at the time and idk if there is any now)

Just to clarify it should be a guideline so it can be broken when providing reasoning that makes sense
Last edited by Okoratu , edited 2 times in total.
Underforest
5,895 posts
Joined July 2015
Underforest

Baraatje123 wrote:

I agree with this, I always disliked the illogical BGs
Same
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu
totally agreed with Okoratu, this should be a guideline not a rule. nvm, already saw alot of extreme cases XD
Last edited by Natsu , edited 3 times in total.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

HappyRocket88 wrote:

B1rd wrote:

Do we really need to control what mappers use as their backgrounds? There are enough rules already, this is just unnecessary. Let people choose what they want. Of course Loctav would DQ for something like that.
This exactly the aptitude we're trying to avoid.
Yep.

HappyRocket88 wrote:

What's the point of choose any bg if it's going to be DQ'ed for irrelevant bg chose? The idea is those new mappers that don't know what to choose can know the bg should be related to the beatmap source /lyrics / anything context of the song. The idea is to avoid such as unnecessary DQs and allow mappers and modders realize the important fact to choose a proper BG for their maps.
The point is maps shouldn't be DQ because of their background. If it's not related to the song in some tangible way, so what? Why does it matter? Mappers should have more freedom and not have every part of their maps controlled by the BAT or QAT or whatever.
ac8129464363
1,560 posts
Joined October 2013
ac8129464363
It's not as clearcut in a lot of cases. What if the song is completely instrumental, with an ambiguous title? At that point it's up to interpretation and you can't really draw the line. This should be a guideline.
Zerss
730 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Zerss
Well, we really should define if it's a guideline or a rule :')

deetz wrote:

It's not as clearcut in a lot of cases. What if the song is completely instrumental, with an ambiguous title? At that point it's up to interpretation and you can't really draw the line. This should be a guideline.
Well, HappyRocket talked about "contexts". I really understand the choice of this word since it kind of represents all of the characteristics; look at my last ranked beatmap. Well, it's an instrumental song; this sound is kind of melancholic and the background seems too; even though the song is talking about breaking, the context here is still present. (at least for me)
Zaphkael
289 posts
Joined October 2014
Zaphkael
First, replace illogical with irrelevant. There is a difference.

Also, what about storyboarded maps that depend on their background? Ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/128645 or my magnolia map.
If this rule will be a thing, you should also add that a decent bg should be added for those idiots that disable sb.

Next: where is the line: tv-sizes use the anime they came from. Games songs the game they came from, but if it's from sfdx or whatever it's called, then find something what fits the style and overall style and feeling of the music. You can use pictures of the artist, album, ... Of course this isn't always 100% clear, and then the 2 (or 3) bn's that rank it should be able to judge them case by case (and ask help at qat's when it's impossible to find something relevant)

For the earlier example watercolour, you can even use a waterdrop if you want. It doesn't always have to be hard, right?
Zerss
730 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Zerss

inspectorscout wrote:

First, replace illogical with irrelevant. There is a difference.

Also, what about storyboarded maps that depend on their background? Ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/128645 or my magnolia map.
If this rule will be a thing, you should also add that a decent bg should be added for those idiots that disable sb.

Next: where is the line: tv-sizes use the anime they came from. Games songs the game they came from, but if it's from sfdx or whatever it's called, then find something what fits the style and overall style and feeling of the music. You can use pictures of the artist, album, ... Of course this isn't always 100% clear, and then the 2 (or 3) bn's that rank it should be able to judge them case by case (and ask help at qat's when it's impossible to find something relevant)

For the earlier example watercolour, you can even use a waterdrop if you want. It doesn't always have to be hard, right?
Well, for the Magnolia mapset, the background is somehow related to the storyboard. But I think we should not say that the background must be related to the song or something like that, but we should say that the background should not be totally out of context (like lolis on nightcore songs or lemur on japanese music).
Still need any clarifications on Guideline/Rule.

✓ Changed illogical to irrelevant.
✓ Tried to make a new rule -to wait until if what I said is a good idea-

EDIT: Well, I'm thinking also about abstract background, I think they should be excluded of the rule, since it's... abstract?
Rori Vidi Veni
175 posts
Joined January 2013
Rori Vidi Veni
This informative post will be deleted anyway, just move along
Last edited by Rori Vidi Veni , edited 1 time in total.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
Something this subjective should never be a rule :P. Ranking Criteria rules are meant to be objective and not available to differing interpretations. If multiple interpretations are possible then the rule cannot be reliably enforced.
Zerss
730 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Zerss

monstrata wrote:

Something this subjective should never be a rule :P. Ranking Criteria rules are meant to be objective and not available to differing interpretations. If multiple interpretations are possible then the rule cannot be reliably enforced.
Well, that's what I'm currently thinking of, since disqualify can happen with a wrong BG, this should be taken more seriously than "oh, it should just be a guideline, that's not bad at all if the background can be out of context".
I'm currently talking with inspectorscout on IRC about that, and we're trying to find a way to make it more like logical; we're currently thinking of the ranking process: well, BNs can check if the background is relevant during the ranking process right? Since there's at least two BNs who check the beatmap before the ranking status, they can already check background's relevance and judge by themselves its utilisation, and by being at least two, if the first one is wrong, the second one can still correct that.

If you want to talk about it, send me an IRC message :)

EDIT: If there's any doubts about the background, they can still ask to the QATs.
EDIT2: Moved to Guideline
Zerss
730 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Zerss
Okay, we talked about the guideline with monstrata and inspectorscout and I've updated it; check out the original post and let's discuss about it~
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
You guys are and always were aware that everything should fit the theme. Every imagery, should fit the theme at least at some degree. Do you really need rule for everything? Use your brain, RC is here just to clarify things that are not 100% obvious. If you think about: "Let's add some handsome guy here, because he's cute." instead of: "Let's find something that makes sense with the song.", then provide a logical argument for why'd that have higher priority. (other maps is not argument) - If you cannot provide argument on what you've done and why is it used, then don't use it. If something cannot be protected by any argument, it logically doesn't need to be forbidden by Ranking Criteria. Every single one of you can think logically and can realize that insensible makes less sense than sensible and therefore insensible should be omitted.

Apart from that checking genius never harms to get inspired for background pick. Not talking exactly about CV's map, but it doesn't make sense to make this a rule. That's like using rule: "Don't take GDs from ranked mapsets." - Everyone can realize you'd steal other's map + we don't need two identical maps. Everyone can use their brain to eliminate insensible things like these. No rule is needed.
Zerss
730 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Zerss

Wafu wrote:

You guys are and always were aware that everything should fit the theme. Every imagery, should fit the theme at least at some degree. Do you really need rule for everything? Use your brain, RC is here just to clarify things that are not 100% obvious. If you think about: "Let's add some handsome guy here, because he's cute." instead of: "Let's find something that makes sense with the song.", then provide a logical argument for why'd that have higher priority. (other maps is not argument) - If you cannot provide argument on what you've done and why is it used, then don't use it. If something cannot be protected by any argument, it logically doesn't need to be forbidden by Ranking Criteria. Every single one of you can think logically and can realize that insensible makes less sense than sensible and therefore insensible should be omitted.

Apart from that checking genius never harms to get inspired for background pick. Not talking exactly about CV's map, but it doesn't make sense to make this a rule. That's like using rule: "Don't take GDs from ranked mapsets." - Everyone can realize you'd steal other's map + we don't need two identical maps. Everyone can use their brain to eliminate insensible things like these. No rule is needed.
Well, for stealing other diffs, it's forbidden, we've seen this everywhere, and most of the nuked beatmaps are because of this. People are aware of this; the fact that doesn't do this or put a random background is only logic (I'm not saying that they're not logic, there can be something behind this). This kind of DQ were never seen in osu! before, that's why we should warn people. Overall, if a DQ would have been done on some Lemur's mapset without any reasons, or clarifications about it (to be honest, we never heard about that, even though I found illogical to put a random background, I said nothing, cuz IT WAS NOT FORBIDDEN) there would have been so much shittalk and drama about it. Let's avoid that, can we? The best way to make people not making drama about it is to officialize the rule. If this rule wouldn't have been officialized, there wouldn't be any reasons to DQ CV's mapset. And for the "stealing diffs on other mapset", it is officialized.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

Zerss wrote:

Well, for stealing other diffs, it's forbidden, we've seen this everywhere, and most of the nuked beatmaps are because of this. People are aware of this; the fact that doesn't do this or put a random background is only logic (I'm not saying that they're not logic, there can be something behind this). This kind of DQ were never seen in osu! before, that's why we should warn people. Overall, if a DQ would have been done on some Lemur's mapset without any reasons, or clarifications about it (to be honest, we never heard about that, even though I found illogical to put a random background, I said nothing, cuz IT WAS NOT FORBIDDEN) there would have been so much shittalk and drama about it. Let's avoid that, can we? The best way to make people not making drama about it is to officialize the rule. If this rule wouldn't have been officialized, there wouldn't be any reasons to DQ CV's mapset. And for the "stealing diffs on other mapset", it is officialized.
Afaik only this is mentioned, that would mean if you ask mapper whether you can take GD from his ranked mapset, then it would be rankable, but logically, it isn't.

Ranking Criteria wrote:

If you are using any elements created by another community member, ask permission beforehand. Respecting the work of others is paramount and most people will be delighted to have their work featured in your projects!
But what's the point. Adding a rule won't avoid drama. If you don't know how does modding system work now, then first we DQ and then we discuss till conclusion is done - we may raise simply anything. If mapper cannot provide an argument that would allow him to keep the issue, then he must change it. There must be reason behind everything and beatmaps can be disqualified for many things that are not mentioned in ranking criteria. We could make rule for every issue that was disqualified, which wouldn't even avoid drama, because it would be full of text. Every single issue could be listed here, which would make it infinite list of criteria which nobody would read after all.

Realize what is Qualified section and DQs about. It's not punishment, it's enhancing the map. People are too much concerned about DQ - scores will be wiped anyway and map won't be harmed at all, just the mapper will be forced to express himself or fix issues.

IT WAS NOT FORBIDDEN
That's simply referring to older maps. We ensure quality, if map with issues passed to ranked section, we can't do anything about it. But as long as it's qualified, anyone is allowed to raise his opinion and start discussion and that's reason why things that can mean quality lack can be disqualified and not only things from Ranking Criteria. As I stated already, most of things in RC are here, because they cannot always be realized by simple logic. We don't need another rule for things that are easy to realize.
Last edited by Wafu , edited 2 times in total.
Zaphkael
289 posts
Joined October 2014
Zaphkael
Okay wafu, you are right that it should be logic. In a map's thread (sorry CV for taking you as an example again) this was posted:

[Taiga] wrote:

The bg should at least make sense, and that is the deciding factor, NOT loctav's personal taste.
Then at least 30%+ of actualy ranked maps need to be DQ with this reason.

Things what i found in Ranking Criteria about background:

Copy and Paste from RC
- There must not be any obscene imagery in the background/storyboard/video content. This includes nudity, near-nudity, sexual references, violence, drug abuse, etc. Keep things PG, suitable for ages 12+.

- A beatmap set may not contain multiple background video files. Multiple videos within a single beatmap set is not supported by osz2 and will result in errors during upload and processing.

- Background images must be at a maximum of 1024x768 pixels for 4:3, 1366x768 pixels for 16:9. Although 1366x768 (16:9) is recommended, most background ratios that are 4:3 or 16:9 should also work reasonably well (for example, 800x600 or 852x480). Using an image with a different ratio is fine, but will result in letterboxing (black bars at the top/bottom of the screen) or upscaling (resized image to fill the whole screen).

- Keep background imagery safe. Images should be on a level that can be displayed on all-audience TV, on public signage, and of nature that doesn't require censoring in any country. If you have any possible edge-case scenarios, please PM peppy on IRC with a link to the image in question; a list of images which are/aren't acceptable will be built up to set some visible guidelines.

- You must have a background image on every difficulty of your map. If your map has a storyboard, then you can easily fade the background out, but one is still required for the song selection menu, online thumbnail icon, and for players not downloading with video (if the map has one).

- There must not be any unnecessary transparency around storyboarded images, so crop and resize them as much as possible. If there are particular reasons for apparently useless transparency, then please explain them. For transparent sprites, there should be at least one pixel of transparent border around them so that interpolation (e.g. a black-bordered image on a black background) works properly (although a shadow or glow around the image will fix this problem as well).

Does irrevelant background breaks any rule in Ranking Criteria? If yes, please point out this rule, maybe i missed it.
If no - please explain under what kind of writen rule about what mapper was aware his map was dq. I just want to be sure, it's not another "bad mood thing" (as community member, and i think others also deserve this answer due case being pretty much weird).

Then tell me how much common sense some people have. This is why we want this guideline.
ac8129464363
1,560 posts
Joined October 2013
ac8129464363

Zerss wrote:

Well, HappyRocket talked about "contexts". I really understand the choice of this word since it kind of represents all of the characteristics; look at my last ranked beatmap. Well, it's an instrumental song; this sound is kind of melancholic and the background seems too; even though the song is talking about breaking, the context here is still present. (at least for me)
well yeah that's what I meant, it's subjective so you can't clearly define those cases. though, you've changed it to guideline already so this is irrelevant. just clarifying what I meant :p
Kyouren
5,582 posts
Joined October 2012
Kyouren
But sometime a song not need used like anime BG or artist BG or band BG or movie BG!
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/328639 <--- that map is nightstep version but i used that BG for original version

Example:
Lindsey Stirling - Shatter Me (feat. Lzzy Hale)
We can taken a broken crystal BG because in that video have a scene broken glass from (what is that toys)

note: why not used a random BG if we can't find a better BG?
Last edited by Kyouren , edited 1 time in total.
Zerss
730 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
Zerss

KittyAdventure wrote:

But sometime a song not need used like anime BG or artist BG or band BG or movie BG!
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/328639 <--- that map is nightstep version but i used that BG for original version

Example:
Lindsey Stirling - Shatter Me (feat. Lzzy Hale)
We can taken a broken crystal because in that video have a scene broken glass from (what is that toys)

note: why not used a random BG if we can't find a better BG?
"Abstract background can be used", for me, it's abstract.
Kyouren
5,582 posts
Joined October 2012
Kyouren


Deal for it :3
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Think logical and you'll avoid this in the future. This is probably the first time ever something gets disqualified because of this reason, because this never has been so wrongly used like here. As much people feels different to various music genres and tracks, people have different emotions and thoughts between song choice x background.

Don't put Justin Bieber as background when the mapped song comes from Taylor Swift. That isn't hard to understand and makes it less complicated for all. Obviously guidelines may apply when it's needed but like said that's a very very rare case.
Nerova Riuz GX
1,413 posts
Joined April 2012
Nerova Riuz GX
well those things are really objective.

take another example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/282345

none of those backgrounds are from the source anime, but some people still think they are relevant because they are still "Japanese anime things".
but why didn't he just use the bg from that anime? well, this line is written in the description:

xxdeathx wrote:

Using moe backgrounds because there is no relevant BG for this anime that isn't shitty
you can't promise that all of those relevant bg are in high quality - which means sometimes other backgrounds are our better choice.
OR, the original artwork is...not that good-looking so the creator don't want to use them.

and let's talk about BG drawings... https://osu.ppy.sh/s/293116 and https://osu.ppy.sh/s/220844
if a "only a little bit relevant but low quality bg" is acceptable, then why an "almost not relevant but high quality bg" is not good and should be changed?
also if you think those two drawing bg are good, then you should understand that "relevant" and "quality" are both OBJECTIVE.

tl;dr maybe you can add that line into guideline but you shouldn't limit the bg usage or even make that as a reason for DQ, because they are objective.
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet
You guys are being pretty silly. Irrelevant backgrounds are just subjective quality issues, like poor spacing usage or bad hitsounding. We don't need rules or guidelines to tell us when something isn't high quality. 99% of the time a bg will be relevant in some way or other, a guideline would almost never need to be enforced. Just don't bubble maps that use lemurs or Korean idols for no reason.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Nerova Riuz GX wrote:

well those things are really objective.

take another example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/282345

none of those backgrounds are from the source anime, but some people still think they are relevant because they are still "Japanese anime things".
but why didn't he just use the bg from that anime? well, this line is written in the description:

xxdeathx wrote:

Using moe backgrounds because there is no relevant BG for this anime that isn't shitty
That simply requires a disqualification asap, the description above is not valid and just vague. Don't let it comes too far and stop being doing crap with backgrounds.
Seijiro
osu! Alumni
3,438 posts
Joined April 2013
Seijiro

UndeadCapulet wrote:

We don't need rules or guidelines to tell us when something isn't high quality. 99% of the time a bg will be relevant in some way or other, a guideline would almost never need to be enforced.
We don't need rules even if people keep using dumb BGs "just because there is another ranked map with the same features"... wow
If mappers aren't smart enough to get what "common sense" is, then I guess someone needs to help them <.<

It's good to have faith in people, but it is even better to have none at all -cit.
LoGo
133 posts
Joined March 2011
LoGo
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/368985 ? what is this... there was one more ranked ( if it's still ranked, don't remember the name) with almost same bg ( no hat and hair ), that's what i call complete nonsense bg...

Uhm, not every anime may have high quality image for background ( haven't really tried searching examples like that but i'm pretty sure in some rare cases that can happen )
Nightblade
76 posts
Joined August 2015
Nightblade
-
Last edited by Nightblade , edited 1 time in total.
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,844 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
uhh.. i personally dont violate this rule myself but.. please no, this would be way too vague. its almost like the nsfw rule..
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