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BoxPlot - Escape With The Clouds

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Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
Subjectively speaking, yes, it's a PP map for me. 6+ minutes, 6.19 Stars, full of jumps. Lets not talk about that though, that's not what we're here for. Im sorry for bringing that up.

My main reason why Im interested in this map is because it's not a bad map, but the opposite. Technically, a really good one - The only major flaw being spaced too much. As mentioned before, you dont need to put fullscreen jumps to add intensity where it might not even be necessary. If you want to make a part stand out, make sure that your standard beat stuff is evenly and not-fullscreen-spaced and then add a bit more spacing to the intense part. The change from "normal" to "increased" spacing will already be enough impact to seem much harder and thus, more intense.
Some patterns also seem to suffer flowwise and aesthetically from the spacing, too, even though this might be a subjective thing as well.

I might post some examples later if that's wanted in here.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
People want to read what they want, I stated what I think about this map clearly. If people decide to twist words I can't do much about it.

Keep the thread clean and focus on the map, thanks.
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
VINXIS
Yauxo's main paragraph basically hit the spot tbh


basicaly i also think that the jumps r way bigger than expected. they r easy to hit adn play nice and stuf but i thought the spacing was way 2 huge than wot the song was "supporting" so to spea k so id say lowering the spacing in general wud make teh map like almost perfect tbh but thats my o p i n i o n lo

tho i think it sud be strategas' choice if he wants to nerf it or not i guess cuz i think theyr objectively fine but yea
Last edited by VINXIS , edited 1 time in total.
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas
Sorry for offending, it wasn't aimed at any person directly, but was aimed to make my point that it will seem too hard for people to trully evaluate the map's spacing while testplaying. I'm not doubting your modding skills at all and it is just my opinion and I can be very subjective at times.

The high spacing is a part of the map I wished to have when I thought of making it. I still feel that the intensity in the kiai is pretty much the same during it.

About the PP thing I'll be subjective too. Honestly most PP maps have one or few hard parts when the whole map is much easier. I think it's not the same here at all. If this map had something like 1 Kiai then sure, but the hard stuff repeats many times and lasts quite long. It could only be considered PP farm for those players who are really consistent.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
here are just a few thoughts i had when playing this:
02:32:396 - this part was MUCH more demanding than 05:24:980 - stamina-wise while being basically the same thing or nearly the same idk the 2nd one just felt a whole lot easier to do because it has more rest moments for my left hand lol
in terms of fun or playability or HOW THE FUCK DO I NOT 100 this 05:16:722 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - crossed a line for me that probably shouldn't have been crossed lol i guess you know what i mean with this
06:29:362 (1,1,2,3) - does this haaaaaaaaaaaave to end in an 1/6 triplet being mapped, i think an 1/6 doublet would be smarter, more forgivable and actually predictable but that may just be me lol
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas

Okoratu wrote:

here are just a few thoughts i had when playing this:
02:32:396 - this part was MUCH more demanding than 05:24:980 - stamina-wise while being basically the same thing or nearly the same idk the 2nd one just felt a whole lot easier to do because it has more rest moments for my left hand lol
This is true. I had two options here either to make the beggining easier for warmup or harder so that ending wouldn't be so hard after playing the map for long already, I'd be guessing people already would run out of stamina, and much rather fail at middle than on the end of the song which always suk.
in terms of fun or playability or HOW THE FUCK DO I NOT 100 this 05:16:722 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - crossed a line for me that probably shouldn't have been crossed lol i guess you know what i mean with this
never got 100s here lol except when I missed the whole slider xd, but I guess you can have complaints about having this part more spaced
06:29:362 (1,1,2,3) - does this haaaaaaaaaaaave to end in an 1/6 triplet being mapped, i think an 1/6 doublet would be smarter, more forgivable and actually predictable but that may just be me lol
Many people have issues here. I personally like it as notes because the music supports it, but if it really bring antifun for people I'll just change it to a slider. 05:03:281 (2) - this thing is 1/8 so it's a slider, because when I had it as circles people complained to me about not being able to do 356 bpm bursts xd
Thanks for your input!
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
as the guy who qualified the map, i thought the overall spacing thing wasn't really a huge deal

the map is designed to use large spacing and is able to maintain a high level of difficulty throughout. the large spacing is introduced intuitively through build up and by the time any player reaches the kiai, they'll know that's how the map was structured

the cool thing about how the map handles spacing is that it's still able to express emphasis through distance between objects. downbeats and snares are spaced more than kicks and other less loud stuff (which irre obviously understood by pointing out 01:32:564 (7,8) - in the dq)

the issue people seem to have is how even though the map is well designed, spacing is larger than what they would consider acceptable. if i were mapping this song, i probably wouldn't space stuff this large either, but how the map is spaced overall is the mapper's decision and if it's done cleanly and consistently, i don't see how it's a problem

most importantly, does adjusting the map to use smaller spacing actually benefit it? changing the mapper's intention of this into the majority's preference of this doesn't really seem like an improvement to map quality, but rather an appeal to less extreme interpretations

personally i wouldn't think that to be enough of a reason to hold back from ranking, but that's just my interpretation of what's going on too lol


o also i think changing the stuff oko pointed out and at least the non-spacing-specific things irre pointed out would be good
Secretpipe
3,316 posts
Joined December 2012
Secretpipe
I told you lol
DahplA
1,099 posts
Joined March 2014
DahplA
Good luck getting this ranked again. I love this map, you've definitely improved.

Feels weird having no stars left D:
Kipley
40 posts
Joined February 2013
Kipley

Secretpipe wrote:

I told you lol
Secretpipe best mapper follow this person's words

edit: idk if im even allowed here wtf but if im allowed to post feedback pls dont go thru with od 9.5 and about the slider hold spam (it's very boring and bothersome to go thru that part without hitting a 100.)
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas

DahplA wrote:

Good luck getting this ranked again. I love this map, you've definitely improved.

Feels weird having no stars left D:
DUDE WHAT LOL, Thanks xd

Kipley wrote:

Secretpipe wrote:

I told you lol
Secretpipe best mapper follow this person's words

edit: idk if im even allowed here wtf but if im allowed to post feedback pls dont go thru with od 9.5 and about the slider hold spam (it's very boring and bothersome to go thru that part without hitting a 100.)
OD is fine. Generally you'll want to have around OD 9 for DnB maps due to easy rhythm, but this one is more difficult so I raised the setting.
The slider spam - I mentioned in my mod before that mapping the same thing as in kiai would be more boring imo. I'm open to listen to your suggestions though.

ATM, I'm still unsure what to do with this map.
Weyland
11 posts
Joined July 2012
Weyland
Sorry for interfering, I'm not a mapper nor a modder but I'd like to say something here.

In my opinion this map is NOT overspaced or overdone at all. Yes, it may become one of the best pp maps real quickly, but that's not the point here.
OD9.5 really feels right here, since the map is really rhythmic and higher level players shouldn't have problems with accuracy when trying to pass/fc this map.
Speaking about jumps - if a person can do these really long and unusual streams without breaking/failing/running out of stamina, why should these jumps be considered overspaced for this difficulty level? This map is nicely balanced and it's lot of fun to play at its current state and I'd like it to become ranked as it is.
Oh, and also - the slider hold spam parts are not boring, quite the opposite - IMO they're the most fun to play.


Only my opinion ofc, I may be totally wrong, sorry about that.
Best wishes and good luck, Strategas!
Aiceo
213 posts
Joined May 2014
Aiceo
Imo map needs more work and i totally agree with some points that Irre mentioned. I actually agree that it's overdone some of the jumps seems super random and unnecessary.
Last edited by Aiceo , edited 2 times in total.
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
The OD and the Sliderspam is fine. Ive had no problems with the Sliderspam yet
Mazzerin
493 posts
Joined July 2013
Mazzerin
so what actually decides what kind of spacing is overdone and what kind is not? if weaker beats are less spaced than the strong ones and they're still relatively similar/fit depending on what sound there is in the song, it's fine to me, because that means the map is consistently hard at an X* star rating and still fits the song. so where's the problem?
and don't tell me full screen jumps are so intense that they're not allowed to be used consistently in a dnb map, this is simply a higher difficulty than your usual extra. also, if you're following the logic that full screen jumps are too intense for a dnb song or something like that, you may as well unrank/throw maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/347765 (just a random example) in the trash bin because the song is too intense for easier difficulties ; )
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas
okay so I fixed some parts that were mentioned if I missed something bring it on
Krimek
Featured Artist
541 posts
Joined February 2013
Krimek

Mazzerin wrote:

you may as well unrank/throw maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/347765 (just a random example) in the trash bin because the song is too intense for easier difficulties
Come on, you obviously can't compare both songs with each others. Racemization has strong beats and intense emphasis, Escape With The Clouds doesn't (in the way Racemization has). It's a pretty calm song (compared to this) which imo doesn't support full screen jumps..
Also Racemization is probably drumstep and even between drum and bass songs you can clearly make a difference.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Krimek
that's like
hella subjective.

all you said so far is that you don't think the instruments here are strong enough to support full screen jumps..? Everything in here is huge by default and relative to that hugeness the screenjumps are the only thing that make sense relation to that. You basically disagree with the core of this map but nerfing the screenjumps is not really an opinion as pishi explained in his post

so i don't know if further discussing this is going to change anything about that lol
Krimek
Featured Artist
541 posts
Joined February 2013
Krimek
Sure this is based on my opinion but I just want to point out that you can't compare both songs just by it's genre.
If he wants to keep the jumps, sure why not.
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas
I believe what Mazzerin meant is - if I can't make fullscreen jumps, because it's a DnB map, then the given map can't have any difficulties other than the hardest one, due to it being intense. And having easy difficulties wouldn't make sense for an intense song like that.
Exote
416 posts
Joined April 2013
Exote

Strategas wrote:

world is harsh mate ;)
Supbads
13 posts
Joined October 2012
Supbads

Exote wrote:

Strategas wrote:

world is harsh mate ;)
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas
Nice, star rating dropped by 0.04 after I removed the biggest jumps.
Changed spaced tripples.
Removed the stack after spaced tripples.
Yeah and made overall spacing more consistant.
Never changing 01:24:811 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - explained my intentions after the dq post.

Oh yeah and thanks for the input to those two posts above, my map quality increased from -69% to 100 % !!! Top quality! THANKS!!!11
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
wellthen
Pho
1,785 posts
Joined November 2013
Pho
Seems like the points were made clear and the spacing concept is valid.

Let's give it another try. #2
Underforest
5,895 posts
Joined July 2015
Underforest
and now waiting for the flame
-Nya-
2,133 posts
Joined December 2011
-Nya-
Hey~ From my M4M queue.

No Escape:
  1. Whoa, that OD is pretty high. (To be honest, I don’t think I’ve ever modded a map that has such a high OD before >.<)
  2. One unsnapped green line: 05:20:765. Easy thing to fix though. Just snap it to 05:20:767
  3. 01:25:823 (8,9,10,11) –These jumps look extremely big to me, especially since the rhythm is so fast. I suggest you try to make the jumps a bit less for more comfortable play here. I see that spacing was the reason that this map got DQ in the first place so I guess I’ll also point out places where I feel the spacings are a bit overdone. Again: 01:24:811 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) – Not all of them, but especially the ones that I pointed out first: 8,9,10,11.
  4. 01:29:025 (1,2) –I don’t really know if it’s necessary to make these jumps this big.
  5. 01:29:868 (7,8) –Weird to play, since the flow goes backwards from 7 back to 8. You can probably try turning this stream: 01:29:531 (3,4,5,6,7) –the other way, so that (3) starts where (7) is now.
  6. 01:30:542 (2,3) –This jump looks big.
  7. 01:31:216 (5,6) –Same as 01:29:868 (7,8) –
  8. 01:32:564 (7,8) –This is an example of a pattern that doesn’t cause bad flow, since you don’t have to jump sharply with your cursor. Then again, that jump looks a bit big, lol.
  9. 01:35:261 (6,7) –Pretty big jump.
  10. 01:39:137 (2,3) –This jump looks insane to me since the rhythm here is much faster than the rest of kiai time and yet you made the jump almost similar to the rest.
  11. 01:41:834 (2,3) -^
  12. 02:17:733 (1,2) –Not a nice placing, since it causes weird flow and you didn’t place any of the rest like this.
  13. 02:19:755 (1,2) – Rather keep the spacing consistent here with the rest since there’s no real change in the music to support the change of distance here.
  14. 02:20:261 (1,2) -^
  15. 02:20:767 (1,2) –This is just . . . no. Very bad flow and too big jump.
  16. 02:54:811 (5,6) –Very big jump here. What makes it even more difficult is the fact that the jump comes right after a stream.

I’m sorry, but there are still a lot of places where I feel the jumps are just too big (It doesn’t really look like you addressed Irre’s spacing issues thoroughly) I won’t be able to push this forward because of the above reasons and many other similar issues: The insane spacings and the bad flow (Bad flow more my personal opinion I guess)

I want to pop the bubble, but honestly, I’m scared to since I’m afraid I’m overreacting or something, but I truly think, personally, that this isn’t ready yet. I would like the next BN to read this as well and then make his/her own judgement. Perhaps this mapset will go through easily now, but I’m not gonna take that chance. Sorry >.<

Good Luck~!
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas

-Nya- wrote:

Hey~ From my M4M queue.

No Escape:
  1. Whoa, that OD is pretty high. (To be honest, I don’t think I’ve ever modded a map that has such a high OD before >.<)
  2. One unsnapped green line: 05:20:765. Easy thing to fix though. Just snap it to 05:20:767
  3. 01:25:823 (8,9,10,11) –These jumps look extremely big to me, especially since the rhythm is so fast. I suggest you try to make the jumps a bit less for more comfortable play here. I see that spacing was the reason that this map got DQ in the first place so I guess I’ll also point out places where I feel the spacings are a bit overdone. Again: 01:24:811 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) – Not all of them, but especially the ones that I pointed out first: 8,9,10,11.
  4. 01:29:025 (1,2) –I don’t really know if it’s necessary to make these jumps this big.
  5. 01:29:868 (7,8) –Weird to play, since the flow goes backwards from 7 back to 8. You can probably try turning this stream: 01:29:531 (3,4,5,6,7) –the other way, so that (3) starts where (7) is now.
  6. 01:30:542 (2,3) –This jump looks big.
  7. 01:31:216 (5,6) –Same as 01:29:868 (7,8) –
  8. 01:32:564 (7,8) –This is an example of a pattern that doesn’t cause bad flow, since you don’t have to jump sharply with your cursor. Then again, that jump looks a bit big, lol.
  9. 01:35:261 (6,7) –Pretty big jump.
  10. 01:39:137 (2,3) –This jump looks insane to me since the rhythm here is much faster than the rest of kiai time and yet you made the jump almost similar to the rest.
  11. 01:41:834 (2,3) -^
  12. 02:17:733 (1,2) –Not a nice placing, since it causes weird flow and you didn’t place any of the rest like this.
  13. 02:19:755 (1,2) – Rather keep the spacing consistent here with the rest since there’s no real change in the music to support the change of distance here.
  14. 02:20:261 (1,2) -^
  15. 02:20:767 (1,2) –This is just . . . no. Very bad flow and too big jump.
  16. 02:54:811 (5,6) –Very big jump here. What makes it even more difficult is the fact that the jump comes right after a stream.

I’m sorry, but there are still a lot of places where I feel the jumps are just too big (It doesn’t really look like you addressed Irre’s spacing issues thoroughly) I won’t be able to push this forward because of the above reasons and many other similar issues: The insane spacings and the bad flow (Bad flow more my personal opinion I guess)

I want to pop the bubble, but honestly, I’m scared to since I’m afraid I’m overreacting or something, but I truly think, personally, that this isn’t ready yet. I would like the next BN to read this as well and then make his/her own judgement. Perhaps this mapset will go through easily now, but I’m not gonna take that chance. Sorry >.<

Good Luck~!
regarding difficulty: I won't change it.
regarding 1st slider spam flow: It's on purpose. I already tested with the 2nd slider part and it feels much more fun to play antiflow way than to play it in a very flowy way like I did with the 2nd part
regarding snappy jumps from bursts: It's also suppose to be that way. It makes the notes feel much more important.

I'll take this more as an opinion that this map is "overdone". Dunno not sure if it's worth updating only for the green line.
Thanks!
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
Randomly joining in again, I know you dont like me, but I care about the map.

With all that BN and QAT drama just around the corner, I'd say that "I wont change the difficulty" will result in "That didnt adress the problem mentioned in the first DQ post -> DQ #2" and will probably circle somewhere around that point. Ive seen that youve changed some things, but some of the unnecessay fullscreen jumps are still to be found in the diff.

To the qualifying BN; Make double-sure that it meets your quality standard. This is a double-edged sword, really.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
[No Eescape]

  1. 01:17:564 (4,5,6) - I can understand your jump from 4>5 but not 5>6. You map an equally large distanced jump to something that is barely audible in the music xP.
  2. 01:24:811 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - These are overdone not because they are too big, bit because this section is quite calm compared to the Kiai right before it. By using jumps this big so early on, it makes the Kiai feel less intense. I think having big jumps here are fine, but comparatively, these should still be smaller than the ones you use in Kiai. Please don't buff the Kiai jumps tho xP.
  3. 01:49:840 (2,4) - Are there even 1/4's here? Applies to a lot of thse 5x streams you use. The blue ticks are nearly inaudible.
  4. 02:05:598 (2,3,1,2) - This doesn't flow very well for me...
  5. 02:08:547 (4) - I would take these out and instead map a jump between 02:08:463 (3,5) - . Triplets work, but making it a 5x stream makes the snare on 5 less impactful. If you did a triplet + jump you could emphasize it a lot better.
  6. 02:37:452 (1,2,3,4) - This should be spaced lower, following your stream pattern. Or at least, spaced less than 02:37:789 (1,2,3,4) - because this set is where the notes are the highest pitch, so having the highest spacing here works best.
  7. 02:54:137 (2,3,1,2) - I don't really like the sharp angle you have to turn from 2>3 in order to play the stream. 02:55:317 (1,2,3) - This is much better though!
  8. 04:11:160 (2,3) - I think a rhythm like this is more appropriate:
    ~
  9. 05:09:811 (1,2,1) - etc... man these are pretty cool.
  10. 05:22:115 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Ehh i didn't like these though. They're all stacked but its kinda awkward to play them for me. I much preferred the patterns which involved jumps and movement. Like this pattern is so different from 05:23:295 (1,2,1,2) - while your other sliders prior usually all involve the same pattern and movement being repeated.
I think you could have paid more attention to kicks and snares at certain parts. Examples: 02:56:665 (1,2,3) - 02:59:362 (1,2,3) - 03:00:036 (3,4,5) - 05:49:250 (1,2,3) - 05:54:643 (1,2,3) - etc... The way you map some of these jumps it seems like you go "this drum is loud, lets map a jump " and "this drum is normal/soft, so we'll use normal spacing". You could be more thorough with your spacing concept.

Good luck!
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas
Yauxo

Yauxo wrote:

Randomly joining in again, I know you dont like me, but I care about the map.

With all that BN and QAT drama just around the corner, I'd say that "I wont change the difficulty" will result in "That didnt adress the problem mentioned in the first DQ post -> DQ #2" and will probably circle somewhere around that point. Ive seen that youve changed some things, but some of the unnecessay fullscreen jumps are still to be found in the diff.

To the qualifying BN; Make double-sure that it meets your quality standard. This is a double-edged sword, really.
It's a little silly that you think I don't like you. I may sound so when I disagree with opinions, but that's not true. I'm actually very grateful that you gave your opinion about some things and that you're trying to help with my map.
Also, I think the dq was also aimed to make this into a discusion and some people agreed with irre some didn't, and I still think dqing the map only because of the difficulty is not right.
Would be grateful if you could point out those unnecessary jumps, because I think in most places they can be justified. Even though, I know I actually made a few errors with spacing that were mentioned in the dq post. I might have missed some idk.
monstrata

monstrata wrote:

[No Eescape]

  1. 01:17:564 (4,5,6) - I can understand your jump from 4>5 but not 5>6. You map an equally large distanced jump to something that is barely audible in the music xP. it was mainly since I wanted to emphasize 01:18:238 (1) - but changed anyway.
  2. 01:24:811 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - These are overdone not because they are too big, bit because this section is quite calm compared to the Kiai right before it. By using jumps this big so early on, it makes the Kiai feel less intense. I think having big jumps here are fine, but comparatively, these should still be smaller than the ones you use in Kiai. Please don't buff the Kiai jumps tho xP. Well I'm tired of people complaining about these so I'll change them rip. I still felt it was stronger than anything in this song so it had this kind of spacing.
  3. 01:49:840 (2,4) - Are there even 1/4's here? Applies to a lot of thse 5x streams you use. The blue ticks are nearly inaudible. They are audible tho, I don't want to change such things since it's a lot of what dnb maps are based on and they fit extremely well imo.
  4. 02:05:598 (2,3,1,2) - This doesn't flow very well for me... idk I don't really see the problem. The slider follows the same direction as the note before and the angle isn't that bad either.
  5. 02:08:547 (4) - I would take these out and instead map a jump between 02:08:463 (3,5) - . Triplets work, but making it a 5x stream makes the snare on 5 less impactful. If you did a triplet + jump you could emphasize it a lot better. I see what you're getting at but my intention was to have the snare thing as the last stream note and I really liked how it went. Also don't want to randomly cut off the obvious stream which is the only thing that you can listen to at this point.
  6. 02:37:452 (1,2,3,4) - This should be spaced lower, following your stream pattern. Or at least, spaced less than 02:37:789 (1,2,3,4) - because this set is where the notes are the highest pitch, so having the highest spacing here works best. Well the stream patern is actually longer since there's two times where 02:37:452 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - 02:42:845 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - this kind of pitch repeats and imo 02:37:789 (1,2,3,4) - is higher pitched than 02:37:452 (1,2,3,4) - so it's more spaced
  7. 02:54:137 (2,3,1,2) - I don't really like the sharp angle you have to turn from 2>3 in order to play the stream. 02:55:317 (1,2,3) - This is much better though! sure
  8. 04:11:160 (2,3) - I think a rhythm like this is more appropriate: I tried to follow vocals there but I guess it's better to follow the thing you gave ok
  9. 05:09:811 (1,2,1) - etc... man these are pretty cool. thank
  10. 05:22:115 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Ehh i didn't like these though. They're all stacked but its kinda awkward to play them for me. I much preferred the patterns which involved jumps and movement. Like this pattern is so different from 05:23:295 (1,2,1,2) - while your other sliders prior usually all involve the same pattern and movement being repeated. Point made
I think you could have paid more attention to kicks and snares at certain parts. Examples: 02:56:665 (1,2,3) - 02:59:362 (1,2,3) - 03:00:036 (3,4,5) - 05:49:250 (1,2,3) - 05:54:643 (1,2,3) - etc... The way you map some of these jumps it seems like you go "this drum is loud, lets map a jump " and "this drum is normal/soft, so we'll use normal spacing". You could be more thorough with your spacing concept. Well I actually did try to make the kick and snare thing more spaced where the bass is stronger, but in some places it just felt too much compared to the other patterns so the spacing stayed rather similar in some places

Good luck!

Thank you!
DahplA
1,099 posts
Joined March 2014
DahplA
I'm not really a fan of the new pre-Kiai jumps. Firstly, they feel much too easy considering that it is all drums here. This should put it miles ahead of 01:22:283 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - in terms of difficulty. Secondly, it's lost the authentic side to side movement which you've kept throughout the mentioned jump section. In my opinion, I suggest nerfing the mentioned section above, then making the pre-Kiai jumps larger, while keeping it in line with monstrata's mod. Where I suggest lowering spacing would be 01:24:137 (4,5,6,7) - this stack and circle. To me, the intensity doesn't get too high in comparison to the jumps emphasis. What I mean is there's a lot of spacing increase, for a little bit of intensity increase. The drum pre-Kiai jumps are well-spaced, but I really would love to see the side-to-side motion again. It was unique, and it's a bit of a shame seeing it removed.

That's my opinion on the change. Good luck C:
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas
uhh it was really painful to remove them yes, I'll see if I can bring them back according to your suggestion. Thanks!
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
Some things will probably overlap with that I've said in my mod and some things might sound weird. It's christmas eve here, my english and explaining might have taken a hit today. I'll list some major examples of what my spacing problem is about so that I dont have to pick every single pattern out of that map. I think this would be disrespectful as well. See these as general examples you could apply to any similar pattern.

Section from 00:39:137 (1) - to 00:43:351 (2) -
I can see that you want to support the song getting "louder" (I guess less quiet) and rightfully so, but comparing the spacing from Part A (quiet) to Part B (not-so-quiet) doesnt feel right to me.

- Part A uses a pretty low and even spacing with expections for patterns like 00:29:699 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -, which is totally fine though! The spacing fits the difficulty and song intensity very well, so there are no complaints here.
- Part B on the other hand literally jumps up the difficulty curve and introduces a 3/1 jumping section, peaking at x3,5 DS for a very similar type of beat like the previous, just being a little bit louder with additional bass here and there.

If Part A's general DS would be 1.0, Part B's should be around 1.3 to 1.5 - it currently feels more like a 2.0 or higher.

Section from 01:22:283 (1) - to 01:26:328 (1) -
What buggs me here is that the difficulty of the song starts to ramp up even before the actual speed/intensity/whatever change happens.

01:22:283 (1) - to 01:24:643 (8) - still feels like it'd belong to the part before that (which had lots of patterned spacing like 01:17:733 (5,6,7,8,9,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - ). Again, I can see the intention behind this, but I dont think that this much spacing is jusified with the previous part in mind.
01:24:811 (1) - to 01:26:160 (10) - Glad that it was nerfed a bit so that it's not full on fullscreen jumps anymore. While it does fit to the intensity of the current buildup, I'd lower this one a little bit as well if you were to change the things mentioned above. It's strong, yes, but it's not the end of a kiai.

Part 01:30:036 (8,9,10,1,2,3) - and similar (Kiai stuff)
So, these happen many times throughout the map, so Im not sure if what I say is even valid. For me though, they're too spaced.

Im having lots of trouble pointing the finger at specific patterns because, theoretically, every single one of these patterns is consistent with a different pattern that meets the same issue. If I were to point out pattern x and ask for a less spaced version, then pattern y would be overspaced in comparison. Rinse repeat, every changed pattern is overspaced compared to the previous one.
It's like as if youre in a sandcastle building competition. One guy builds a huge one and everyone tried to build a better and higher one - until everyone's castle breaks down. wat

I feel like stuff like the following examples could be toned down by at least a tiny bit, as some of them just feel like basic* beats/notes. Maybe this would help to lower the general spacing a little bit, too.

01:27:845 (2,3) -
01:30:036 (8,9,10,1,2,3) -
01:33:238 (2,1) -
01:35:261 (6,7) -
01:35:767 (1,2,1) -
01:37:958 (6,7,8) -
01:41:665 (1,2,3,4) -
01:43:856 (1,2,1) -
01:46:047 (5,6) -
01:46:553 (1,2,1) -
01:49:081 (5,6,1,2,3) -
01:51:946 (1,2,3) -
01:54:643 (1,2,1) -
01:57:340 (1,2,1) -
02:02:227 (5,6,7,1,2,3) -
02:04:924 (5,6) -

On the other hand I'd like to point out patterns that I really like, spacing wise. I could see the map being mapped like this (if used correctly)

01:29:531 (3,4,5,6,7,8) -
01:31:553 (7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
01:34:418 (1,2,3,4,5) -
01:39:474 (4,5,1) -
01:42:845 (2,3,4,5) -
01:46:890 (1,2,3,4,1) -
01:49:755 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) -
01:53:632 (2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1) -
01:55:654 (4,1,2,3,4,5) -
01:58:351 (4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
02:03:238 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2) -
02:06:778 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2) -

So, if you were to adjust the "wrong" spaced objects to be "right" spaced objects, I'd probably be happy already.

(*Basic: Things you'd map as a "normal spaced" object in a very standard/meta Insane (no very strong bass/beat, no streamy sounds, etc.) (I hope this makes sense))

I also think that things like 03:01:722 (5,6,1,2,3) - dont feel too good either. Right now, there's tons of movement everywhere with these huge jumps, so (5 and 6) are comparably tiny and have "no" movement to add to the map.

If we were to talk about consistency, the movement should probably go (Fast) (Fast) (Less Fast) (Somewhat Slow) (Less Fast) (Fast) (Fast), while patterns like these are (Fast) (Fast) (Fast) (Slow) (Fast) (Fast) (Fast).

I feel stupid/like a kid explaining things like this, but I dont know how to do it otherwise. Sorry lol

Anyway, I hope that this helps a little bit.
It feels like Im just trying to kill the difficulty of this map. Maybe Im just a guy that dislikes extremely spaced maps, sorry.
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas

Yauxo wrote:

Some things will probably overlap with that I've said in my mod and some things might sound weird. It's christmas eve here, my english and explaining might have taken a hit today. I'll list some major examples of what my spacing problem is about so that I dont have to pick every single pattern out of that map. I think this would be disrespectful as well. See these as general examples you could apply to any similar pattern.

Section from 00:39:137 (1) - to 00:43:351 (2) -
I can see that you want to support the song getting "louder" (I guess less quiet) and rightfully so, but comparing the spacing from Part A (quiet) to Part B (not-so-quiet) doesnt feel right to me.

- Part A uses a pretty low and even spacing with expections for patterns like 00:29:699 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -, which is totally fine though! The spacing fits the difficulty and song intensity very well, so there are no complaints here.
- Part B on the other hand literally jumps up the difficulty curve and introduces a 3/1 jumping section, peaking at x3,5 DS for a very similar type of beat like the previous, just being a little bit louder with additional bass here and there.

If Part A's general DS would be 1.0, Part B's should be around 1.3 to 1.5 - it currently feels more like a 2.0 or higher.

Section from 01:22:283 (1) - to 01:26:328 (1) -
What buggs me here is that the difficulty of the song starts to ramp up even before the actual speed/intensity/whatever change happens.

01:22:283 (1) - to 01:24:643 (8) - still feels like it'd belong to the part before that (which had lots of patterned spacing like 01:17:733 (5,6,7,8,9,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - ). Again, I can see the intention behind this, but I dont think that this much spacing is jusified with the previous part in mind.
01:24:811 (1) - to 01:26:160 (10) - Glad that it was nerfed a bit so that it's not full on fullscreen jumps anymore. While it does fit to the intensity of the current buildup, I'd lower this one a little bit as well if you were to change the things mentioned above. It's strong, yes, but it's not the end of a kiai.

Part 01:30:036 (8,9,10,1,2,3) - and similar (Kiai stuff)
So, these happen many times throughout the map, so Im not sure if what I say is even valid. For me though, they're too spaced.

Im having lots of trouble pointing the finger at specific patterns because, theoretically, every single one of these patterns is consistent with a different pattern that meets the same issue. If I were to point out pattern x and ask for a less spaced version, then pattern y would be overspaced in comparison. Rinse repeat, every changed pattern is overspaced compared to the previous one.
It's like as if youre in a sandcastle building competition. One guy builds a huge one and everyone tried to build a better and higher one - until everyone's castle breaks down. wat

I feel like stuff like the following examples could be toned down by at least a tiny bit, as some of them just feel like basic* beats/notes. Maybe this would help to lower the general spacing a little bit, too.

01:27:845 (2,3) -
01:30:036 (8,9,10,1,2,3) -
01:33:238 (2,1) -
01:35:261 (6,7) -
01:35:767 (1,2,1) -
01:37:958 (6,7,8) -
01:41:665 (1,2,3,4) -
01:43:856 (1,2,1) -
01:46:047 (5,6) -
01:46:553 (1,2,1) -
01:49:081 (5,6,1,2,3) -
01:51:946 (1,2,3) -
01:54:643 (1,2,1) -
01:57:340 (1,2,1) -
02:02:227 (5,6,7,1,2,3) -
02:04:924 (5,6) -

On the other hand I'd like to point out patterns that I really like, spacing wise. I could see the map being mapped like this (if used correctly)

01:29:531 (3,4,5,6,7,8) -
01:31:553 (7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
01:34:418 (1,2,3,4,5) -
01:39:474 (4,5,1) -
01:42:845 (2,3,4,5) -
01:46:890 (1,2,3,4,1) -
01:49:755 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) -
01:53:632 (2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1) -
01:55:654 (4,1,2,3,4,5) -
01:58:351 (4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
02:03:238 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2) -
02:06:778 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2) -

So, if you were to adjust the "wrong" spaced objects to be "right" spaced objects, I'd probably be happy already.

(*Basic: Things you'd map as a "normal spaced" object in a very standard/meta Insane (no very strong bass/beat, no streamy sounds, etc.) (I hope this makes sense))

I also think that things like 03:01:722 (5,6,1,2,3) - dont feel too good either. Right now, there's tons of movement everywhere with these huge jumps, so (5 and 6) are comparably tiny and have "no" movement to add to the map.

If we were to talk about consistency, the movement should probably go (Fast) (Fast) (Less Fast) (Somewhat Slow) (Less Fast) (Fast) (Fast), while patterns like these are (Fast) (Fast) (Fast) (Slow) (Fast) (Fast) (Fast).

I feel stupid/like a kid explaining things like this, but I dont know how to do it otherwise. Sorry lol

Anyway, I hope that this helps a little bit.
It feels like Im just trying to kill the difficulty of this map. Maybe Im just a guy that dislikes extremely spaced maps, sorry.

Adjusted spacing in some parts. However, places in the kiai like 01:33:070 (1) - 01:43:856 (1) - feel stronger too me than 01:27:677 (1) - 01:38:463 (1) - etc so spaced them a little more. 01:49:081 (5,6,1,2,3) - these things also gonna keep, cause feels strong aswell. Regarding the big - small - big jump thing also gonna keep it like that since that's just how the music is. I would understand it would be pure cancer if they flowed kinda linear but sharp angles play much easier with such things.
Thanks!
Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,733 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne
M4M Return

I'm kind of impressed with the map after playing throughout the song, the last kiai did good job, disappointed at first for high AR usage though.

There are 2 things that I don't like in the song and deem to be unfitting with the pacing of the diff, hope you consider changing them a bit along with your taste and such

- spaced triples: 01:49:081 (5,6,1) - , 03:15:373 (5,6,1) - , 04:41:665 (5,6,1) - and 06:07:958 (4,5,1) - I can't find them fitting with the song at all and to be honest, they are annoying to play in practice so is it done in favor of having more pp? if not, you could change to a triple stack or use less-spaced triples instead.

- 02:10:823 (1,2) - this is kind of surprising to read for the first time, trying to introduce this by having proper spacing at the 1st 2 sliders and then leave the rest the same? proper spacing that I mean is just only using ctrl+g on 02:10:823 (1) - and everything else is done, just make it close spacing to show players it's sliders on 1/4 not constant 1/2 like what have been done so far. When you compare this with 05:03:407 (1,2) - , it's more intuitive on 05:03:407 (1,2) - as they are mapped by curved slider and the direction is matched each other unlike 02:10:823(1,2) -

The rest looks great though, a challenging map to play that doesn't go beyond the song that far. Good luck for re-qualification and ranking :oops:
Strategas
1,378 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Strategas

FrostxE wrote:

M4M Return

I'm kind of impressed with the map after playing throughout the song, the last kiai did good job, disappointed at first for high AR usage though. this ar feels comfortable to me personally for such map, it's not a farm map anyway so much rather let it be more forgiving

There are 2 things that I don't like in the song and deem to be unfitting with the pacing of the diff, hope you consider changing them a bit along with your taste and such

- spaced triples: 01:49:081 (5,6,1) - , 03:15:373 (5,6,1) - , 04:41:665 (5,6,1) - and 06:07:958 (4,5,1) - I can't find them fitting with the song at all and to be honest, they are annoying to play in practice so is it done in favor of having more pp? if not, you could change to a triple stack or use less-spaced triples instead. it's just intense there, but I guess the tripples can be less spaced, but they have to be emphasized since I mapped to the drums

- 02:10:823 (1,2) - this is kind of surprising to read for the first time, trying to introduce this by having proper spacing at the 1st 2 sliders and then leave the rest the same? proper spacing that I mean is just only using ctrl+g on 02:10:823 (1) - and everything else is done, just make it close spacing to show players it's sliders on 1/4 not constant 1/2 like what have been done so far. When you compare this with 05:03:407 (1,2) - , it's more intuitive on 05:03:407 (1,2) - as they are mapped by curved slider and the direction is matched each other unlike 02:10:823(1,2) - changed that part a little to make it play easier and yeah less spacing on first few sliders

The rest looks great though, a challenging map to play that doesn't go beyond the song that far. Good luck for re-qualification and ranking :oops:
Thank you!
Pho
1,785 posts
Joined November 2013
Pho
Back to #1
snz
877 posts
Joined February 2015
snz
Wtf DahplA!?

DahplA
1,099 posts
Joined March 2014
DahplA

Ppuskalin wrote:

Wtf DahplA!?

C:
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