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Cumulative rank

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +1,191
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Topic Starter
Bara-
That's good, the need of all mode-ranks
But pp weighting would be weird, as my best scores will ve taiko only, and some ctb
Effy
What a great idea, here some stars >A<
Topic Starter
Bara-
Time for a little bump
iJXL
Support!

Shooting starssss~ :)
Drezi
I think a cumulative rank in itself does make sense, since the rhythm based gameplay and ranking metric of the four game modes is similar enough. Rankings/competition based on a set of skills is not unheard of, nor pointless - it's present even in the Olympics, namely as Triathlon and Modern pentathlon.

HOWEVER.

Including everyone in all-mode rankings is wrong, and should not ever happen. Why? There are lots of people (including me) who have no interest at all in game modes other than standard, thus ranking multi-mode players above us would be like ranking a Triathlon athele above every pure Swimmer/Cyclist/Runner. I hope you can see how bad that would be. The purpose of such a sport/ranking is to compare ONLY THOSE who actually decided to competitively participate in all the subcategories involved.

So you can make a ranking among yourselves, all-mode players, but don't try to include those who don't play all-mode.
GhostFrog

Drezi wrote:

Including everyone in all-mode rankings is wrong, and should not ever happen. Why? There are lots of people (including me) who have no interest at all in game modes other than standard, thus ranking multi-mode players above us would be like ranking a Triathlon athele above every pure Swimmer/Cyclist/Runner. I hope you can see how bad that would be. The purpose of such a sport/ranking is to compare ONLY THOSE who actually decided to competitively participate in all the subcategories involved.

So you can make a ranking among yourselves, all-mode players, but don't try to include those who don't play all-mode.
The triathlete analogy is subtly flawed - a swimmer is not a triathlete and if a swimmer one day decides to go for a short bike ride and then for a run, he is still not a triathlete. If you play any of the 4 osu! game modes, you're an osu! player.

The interesting thing is that if this overall rank were implemented, viewpoints like the one you expressed in your post would become less common. I haven't checked this thread much recently, but iirc, the most common objection to an overall ranking (or perhaps the only objection aside from concerns over implementation details) is that it's unfair for players who only play one mode to have a bad overall rank listed on their profile. I honestly can't see how that's a problem unless people seeing every game mode as legitimate is a problem - think about it, that bad rank on your profile would only mean anything to someone who believes all 4 modes are legitimate parts of osu! and the opposition to this feature is primarily (not entirely but mostly) thinly-veiled osu!standard-centricism. Having an all-mode ranking would go a long way towards making all 4 modes seem like legitimate parts of osu! rather than a core game with 3 undesirable siblings. If you wanted to know who was better at osu!standard, you would look at osu!standard rankings. If you wanted to know who was better overall at the 4 osu! game modes, you would look at the overall ranking.





My only concerns with this request are pp-related (things like making sure pp scaling is uniform across all modes). If/when pp is accurate enough and consistent enough across modes, overall ranking could just be based on the sum or average (probably average) of your pp totals for each mode.
Topic Starter
Bara-
About the bad rank
If you play ctb once or twice, you get 1 pp for example, giving you rank 500k or smth
So you don't care about that bad rank, but you do care about a bad rank in total
Come on please

Yeah, pp scaling might need to be adjusted a little for this, but idk how exactly ;-;
Luna
Since the concern of "unjust" low ranks is coming up again, lemme quote myself here.

Luna wrote:

And to address the issues of people who don't want a cumulative rank since they don't play all modes - how about we just make the cumulative rank decay/disappear whenever one of your mode ranks does the same? So, you won't have a cumulative rank unless you have "active" ranks in all modes?
Drezi

GhostFrog wrote:

The triathlete analogy is subtly flawed - a swimmer is not a triathlete and if a swimmer one day decides to go for a short bike ride and then for a run, he is still not a triathlete. If you play any of the 4 osu! game modes, you're an osu! player.
I don't want to go into further analogies, since there will always be aspects where the cases being compared differ, but I think my main point here is pretty clear.
You can categorise everyone as an "osu! player", but it doesn't change the fact that the 4 game modes are distinct games on their own, bundled together. An osu! standard player is completely different from an osu! mania player. And as you said, if an osu! standard player decides to play some others mods too, it still doesn't make him an all-mode player and should not be included in the same ladder, since their efforts are not comparable.
Yes playing one or more games included in osu! connects them, but that's not more relevant for the sake of rankings than playing games connecting people as being "gamers".

GhostFrog wrote:

the most common objection to an overall ranking (or perhaps the only objection aside from concerns over implementation details) is that it's unfair for players who only play one mode to have a bad overall rank listed on their profile. I honestly can't see how that's a problem unless people seeing every game mode as legitimate is a problem
Every game mode is a legitimate part of osu!, but they are different games and they have their own ladders. Not everyone is interested in playing different games apart from the one of their choice, so yes it is unfair to compare someone who only practices one game mode with someone who is interested in all of them. Ranking an osu! standard player together with an all-mode player is not much different, than trying to rank an osu! standard player together with someone who plays stepmania and sound voltex and some standalone taiko game too. Playing different games within osu is optional just like playing separate rhythm games, and not a necessity of being a good "osu! player", thus no ranking should indicate otherwise.
Drezi

Luna wrote:

Since the concern of "unjust" low ranks is coming up again, lemme quote myself here.

Luna wrote:

And to address the issues of people who don't want a cumulative rank since they don't play all modes - how about we just make the cumulative rank decay/disappear whenever one of your mode ranks does the same? So, you won't have a cumulative rank unless you have "active" ranks in all modes?
Yes, sorry I missed that, that's what I proposed too - only rank players together who actually actively play all-modes.
Minhtam
Would love to see this happen, but our current pp systems aren't ready for this. Taiko pp has yet to be properly readjusted.
Reign
Promoted.
Eni
This sounds really cool. It will help promote players to actually play something other than osu!standard and reward those that already do. :)

Maybe there can be a section for Cumulative Rank on the new site?
Topic Starter
Bara-
Bump
I just came across this searching for an other thread
Time to bring this back up
-Maus-
Unsupport, basically because of what Drezi said.
Rilene
Nice idea, need to support this.
Having this doesn't damage everyone, I think (maybe the effect is too smal for the website to be noticed)

This encourages to play all modes together, and perhaps more fun. :)
Irreversible

Drezi wrote:

Including everyone in all-mode rankings is wrong, and should not ever happen. Why? There are lots of people (including me) who have no interest at all in game modes other than standard, thus ranking multi-mode players above us would be like ranking a Triathlon athele above every pure Swimmer/Cyclist/Runner. I hope you can see how bad that would be. The purpose of such a sport/ranking is to compare ONLY THOSE who actually decided to competitively participate in all the subcategories involved.
I don't really enjoy playing other modes besides Standard as well. Do I now care what rank I have in Taiko, CtB or osu!mania? No. Why would you have to care about the Cumulative one? If there would be contests for it, it's for people who want to play all these modes - if they don't enjoy it, they can simply ignore it, can't they?

Supporting, because in my opinion the ones who don't want to play all 4 modes can simply ignore this. And after all, it would be a challenge for those who seek for more.
Topic Starter
Bara-
Bump
Topic Starter
Bara-

Baraatje123 wrote:

Bump
Gnoske
yes please! i play all modes, would love this!
MBomb
I still think this is a great idea. As stated previously, if you don't care about other modes, just ignore the cumulative rank like you would ignore the other modes rank.
Amane
great idea!
Endaris
It's a bit lame with the learning curves though.
It's no problem for anyone halfdecent at standard to get to 1,5k pp in Taiko in no time as the easiest Kantans already give 50pp for SS and Futsuus 100pp.
Tbh any further mechanics that encourage players to play the maps that give most pp for the least skill or effort is bad for the game and especially in Taiko and mania where you got some converts that are terribly effective for pp yet rather worthless gameplaywise. Like full don Taikomaps...

I have a lot of respect for people who play all modes on a decent level but I think such an cumulative ranking isn't the correct way to promote them.
Kayla
So is this just a way for people who dont only play standard to be able to say "Im a higher rank over-all than you" to other standard players?
I dont see the function for this, really; other then that.

This wont lead to all-mode tournaments or all-mode in game rankings. Seems like clutter. Yes people can ignore it, but people won't.

osu!mania: I dont play because of releasing sliders.
Taiko: Makes me dizzy.
ctb: Makes me dizzy.
Chrli

Kayla wrote:

Yes people can ignore it, but people won't.
Honestly I agree there, this is an interesting idea but it just doesn't seem needed... more or less another way for bragging rights.
Just my opinion.
GhostFrog
The "people won't ignore it" and that they'll use it for bragging rights (is that seriously even a thing people care about????) argument works as an argument against having a pp system at all. The current pp system favors people who play certain types of maps, regardless of which game mode you're referring to, just like an all-mode ranking system would favor people who plays all modes. An all-mode ranking system would actually be harder to exploit for bragging rights though because you can tell so easily if someone doesn't play one or more of the game modes - having a 1pp play as a top performance in some mode tends to make it obvious, for example. This, of course, is assuming that people actually care about using rank for bragging rights rather than for a fun bit of competitiveness. Which is really really silly.

The "x pp in one mode is not the same as x pp in another mode" argument is true and I stand by what I've already said in this thread that the pp curves for all modes would need to be smoothed out before this would be a good idea. I do think it would be a good idea when that happens though.
Sea_Food

Charlieesh wrote:

Kayla wrote:

Yes people can ignore it, but people won't.
Honestly I agree there, this is an interesting idea but it just doesn't seem needed... more or less another way for bragging rights.
Just my opinion.
Okay. Should I make a thread in feature request sub forum suggesting that all ranks should be removed from the game. What is the point of having a rank if not bragging rights...
Topic Starter
Bara-
BUMP
I still want this quite a lot

EDIT: FINALLY
10.000 posts ^_^
Sea_Food
Gz
Topic Starter
Bara-

Bara- wrote:

Baraatje123 wrote:

Bump
Edit: 9400th post ^_^
Endaris
Filthy Postcountfarmer :^)
I think when you're already bumping it would be good if you added the arguments given so far to the OP to make it easier to discuss for people who see it for the first time now so they don't have to dig through 7 pages.
AX3M
Wow! This is genius. It reminds players that they don't have to stick with a mode or two but be flexible and that osu! is not just osu! standard. Neat.

Edit: I would send a couple stars, but I have none atm so..
Topic Starter
Bara-

Endaris wrote:

Filthy Postcountfarmer :^)
I think when you're already bumping it would be good if you added the arguments given so far to the OP to make it easier to discuss for people who see it for the first time now so they don't have to dig through 7 pages.
I'll do that later today
I'm at mobile now
mizuki-chan
i like the idea.
i would start at least trying the other modes too then (maybe...)
Flami
good but there are a lot of people that only play one or two modes and not all four which would make it kind of weird imo
mulraf
also liking the idea a lot and thought about it as well.
sadly no more stars left ;(
Reha
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Korrui
that would be pretty cool but i would be sad to see how low my average rank is considering i have a horrible mania rank.. how would it work with people who dont have a rank in a gamemode?
Mirt
I love this idea. Maybe it will even motivate me play try CTB more. >.>

I also think that it would be great for others to try more modes rather than just sticking to one. I like it c:
Reha
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