People shouldn't cut original songs unless it's an official cut like from videogames.
forum
[Rule] The minimum draining time for a map must be 1 minute
posted
Total Posts
155
Mercurial
I have to disagree with thisMercurial wrote:
Sometimes is pointless to map songs that are pure loops, though.Cloudchaser wrote:
People shouldn't cut original songs unless it's an official cut like from videogames.
This requires the need to be creative, and do something different, as that'll make the map more fun to play
For example, my ranked map *CLICK*
The Original song is 7 seconds
There are 4-5 loops (5th being a fade out) but by usage of SV changes and overall changes all parts feel really different (perhaps not for easy though, but you get what I mean right?)
I think Mercurial is reffering to cases where you have unnecessary many loops, taking your map which would be two minutes long for example. You wouldn't map a 7 second loop as many times to have two minutes in the end, do you?baraatje123 wrote:
I have to disagree with this
This requires the need to be creative, and do something different, as that'll make the map more fun to play
For example, my ranked map *CLICK*
The Original song is 7 seconds
There are 4-5 loops (5th being a fade out) but by usage of SV changes and overall changes all parts feel really different (perhaps not for easy though, but you get what I mean right?)
Nope
That's a bit excessive
Unless you loop it to approval size and make ir special
Not sure if that's possible though
That's a bit excessive
Unless you loop it to approval size and make ir special
Not sure if that's possible though
It is. But that is ridiculously stupid, even as Collab.baraatje123 wrote:
Nope
That's a bit excessive
Unless you loop it to approval size and make ir special
Not sure if that's possible though
But like Snaggletooth writes, there are songs that are over 1:00 but may not have 1:00 of drain time due to breaks and/or intro's. I don't think this should be a hard rule. A guideline? Definitely, but an absolute rule? No.Loctav wrote:
The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the full version of a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute. This is so each map gives a sufficiently long gameplay experience. It also prevents people to cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song in a proper way.
Rule: The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds.
Guideline: If the potential drain time for a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute.
I know that sounds weird when you read it the first time, but what I mean is, If there is potential for the song's drain time to be over 1 minute, then it must have a drain time of over 1 minute. Of course, this still leaves some subjectivity in the air. Some people may choose not to map a section of the song, calling it a break, while others may think the break is can be mapped. For situations like this, I think the proposed rule for cut versions of a song should be more of a guideline that at the BN's/QAT's discretion, can be a potential cause for disqualification.
Regarding time-investment angle Garven brought up, I haven't heard of anyone who takes as much time modding a 30 second mapset as a 3 minute mapset. Time spent modding depends a lot more on the map's quality and mappers' decisions than it does their drain time. Sure, maybe shorter maps carry less impact because there isn't as much drain time to actually express the song, but what's wrong with that? Also, just like how for some people, time is seemingly an infinite source, for others who do not have that luxury, mapping short songs is just more practical if they still want to contribute to the mapping community.
Wording it like this would disallow TV-Sizes and "short ver." songs completely.Granger wrote:
I disgree, even with the new proposal of limiting to 1 minute if the song is 1 minute or longer.
If you want to stop people from excessively cutting songs out of lazyness simply forbid that or, better, limit how much of a song you're allowed to cut. Something like that:The final drain time of a song must be at least 85% of the full version song.
Most Animu TV Size songs have a longer, 3+ minute version, so that would throw things off. TV Size length cant reach these 85% of the 3+ minutes at all.
Really though, just disallow very obvious cuts around 1 minute but allow natually short songs with at least 30 seconds. Noone will be hurt.
Agreed in some way with baraatje123's point but I'm giving reference to those people who cut the song from 4 mins to 1 min. Anyway, I'd approve if the song is extremely short and it's able to being looped like your example.
I don't know if you get my idea.
I don't know if you get my idea.
Mercurial
The wording says "full version song" so technically it does disallow TV Sizes, since those aren't the "full version". Changing it to "official release" would solve the issue, more or less.Mercurial wrote:
Anime songs (TVSize) are official so there's nothing against them.Yauxo wrote:
Wording it like this would disallow TV-Sizes and "short ver." songs completely.
Mercurial
Unless you don't map 15/20 seconds of your selected song, then there's nothing against it.UndeadCapulet wrote:
The wording says "full version song" so technically it does disallow TV Sizes, since those aren't the "full version". Changing it to "official release" would solve the issue, more or less.
thismonstrata wrote:
Rule: The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds.
Guideline: If the potential drain time for a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute.
But, why do we need to make 2 things, just make a rule that is providing an exception, potential also is not the right word imo, that would cause people asking whether they can have song less than minute or not. Potential could mean remix, lowered BPM or loop.monstrata wrote:
Rule: The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds.
Guideline: If the potential drain time for a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute.
The minimum draining time for a map must be 30 seconds. If original version of the song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining time for the map must be 1 minute with an exception of official cuts.
Official cuts = i.e. TV Size. Short Ver. provided by artistbut then we'd still have the issue of actual full length songs that are just above one minute but cant achive 1 minute full drain time. Thats why I'm saying, this should only apply to cuts made by the mapper.Wafu wrote:
But, why do we need to make 2 things, just make a rule that is providing an exception, potential also is not the right word imo, that would cause people asking whether they can have song less than minute or not. Potential could mean remix, lowered BPM or loop.monstrata wrote:
Rule: The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds.
Guideline: If the potential drain time for a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute.The minimum draining time for a map must be 30 seconds. If original version of the song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining time for the map must be 1 minute with an exception of official cuts.Official cuts = i.e. TV Size. Short Ver. provided by artist
It applies only to cuts made by mapper. "with an exception of official cuts"
Mercurial
Maeglwn
I don't get how someone can look at that poll and conclude that 60s or less maps are everyone's least favorite and they should be unranked. By that logic, we should also be unranking anything over 6 minutes because they are also less popular than 2minute/3minute songs. While we're at it, let's make only anime opening theme songs rankable, other genres are clearly less popular. Oh, and Hard, Insane, or Extra diffs are the most popular, so Easy and Normal should be unranked. As well as modes other than Standard.
You wouldn't ask "what is your favorite osu! mode", and then when the result is Standard, unrank Taiko, CTB, and Mania, right? That's just idiotic. I don't see how this poll is any different.
You wouldn't ask "what is your favorite osu! mode", and then when the result is Standard, unrank Taiko, CTB, and Mania, right? That's just idiotic. I don't see how this poll is any different.
I am not talking about official cuts. And if you want to include short songs, that I brought up (example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/301072),Wafu wrote:
It applies only to cuts made by mapper. "with an exception of official cuts"
which are only barely over a minute, then you should clarify the wording to prevent confusion
and future conflicts.
How about:
The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the song was custom cut by the mapper, the minimum draining (play) time must exceed 1 minute. This is to prevent mappers from excessively and unreasonably cut songs and preventing a full experience, while
still allowing the option to shorten songs that have an overly repetitive beat/tune to prevent boredom while playing and mapping.
still allowing the option to shorten songs that have an overly repetitive beat/tune to prevent boredom while playing and mapping.
Mercurial
Yes and no.Snaggletooth wrote:
How about:The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the song was custom cut by the mapper, the minimum draining (play) time must exceed 1 minute. This is to prevent mappers from excessively and unreasonably cut songs and preventing a full experience, while
still allowing the option to shorten songs that have an overly repetitive beat/tune to prevent boredom while playing and mapping.
Yes for what you said.
No for "Yeah, I've got this sweet song I do want to map but I don't to spend much time on it. Uhm, great idea! What about cutting off this 2:15 song to 1 minute or so? It's perfect!"
I'm okay with the "85% of the song mapped" option.
"Hur dur, I hate short maps because they bring nothing to the game because Muh opinions > your opinions".tuddster wrote:
I don't get how someone can look at that poll and conclude that 60s or less maps are everyone's least favorite and they should be unranked.
That kind of people.
This is almost the same thing I said, just longer and more complicated because it allows another exception.Snaggletooth wrote:
The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the song was custom cut by the mapper, the minimum draining (play) time must exceed 1 minute. This is to prevent mappers from excessively and unreasonably cut songs and preventing a full experience, while
still allowing the option to shorten songs that have an overly repetitive beat/tune to prevent boredom while playing and mapping.
If the cut was officially used somewhere, you are allowed to use it under 1 minute - That means any cut which were done by mapper or other person (this only talks about mapper, which is pretty questionable and there would soon be people making soundcloud, cutting it and uploading it as some another artist with "no, I did not cut it, it is some other person's cut".
The minimum draining time for a map must be 30 seconds. If original version of the song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining time for the map must be 1 minute with an exception of official cuts.
Was covering this as well. Official cut = exactly the same song you are mapping, but shortened by artist or someone else to use it in official source. This still allows you to cut maps on yourself if it will be longer than 1 minute. If there is a problem for someone to understand that it is equal to your wording, just simpler, the problem is on the other side, this is as obvious as it just could be.Nevertheless mapping TV Size versions and so on is a bit lazy, but might have reasons - Including video, thus presenting the anime a little, but cutting them manually is just lazy and I did never see a reason to cut it unless there were really unmappable parts.
I don't think this rule makes any sense.
There weren't big complaints over the last years, so why now.
There was a lot said already so I don't have really anything to add, but I just think this doesn't feel right.
I enjoy every lenght of maps. Although I like long maps over 5 minutes the most, the short ones are still fun.
And that's what this game is about, right?
There weren't big complaints over the last years, so why now.
There was a lot said already so I don't have really anything to add, but I just think this doesn't feel right.
I enjoy every lenght of maps. Although I like long maps over 5 minutes the most, the short ones are still fun.
And that's what this game is about, right?
I'm not sure where you found that 85% mapped proposal but I have mapped and seen several maps with long intros that are quite unmappable or really doesn't need that much of it mapped. Further restrictions like that are bound to decrease quality of some songs. I might have misunderstood you but yehMercurial wrote:
Yes and no.Snaggletooth wrote:
How about:The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the song was custom cut by the mapper, the minimum draining (play) time must exceed 1 minute. This is to prevent mappers from excessively and unreasonably cut songs and preventing a full experience, while
still allowing the option to shorten songs that have an overly repetitive beat/tune to prevent boredom while playing and mapping.
Yes for what you said.
No for "Yeah, I've got this sweet song I do want to map but I don't to spend much time on it. Uhm, great idea! What about cutting off this 2:15 song to 1 minute or so? It's perfect!"
I'm okay with the "85% of the song mapped" option."Hur dur, I hate short maps because they bring nothing to the game because Muh opinions > your opinions".tuddster wrote:
I don't get how someone can look at that poll and conclude that 60s or less maps are everyone's least favorite and they should be unranked.
That kind of people.
Then I really think the word 'cut' is what strikes me odd here. I don't disagree with you, I think I misunderstood orWafu wrote:
This is almost the same thing I said, just longer and more complicated because it allows another exception.
If the cut was officially used somewhere, you are allowed to use it under 1 minute - That means any cut which were done by mapper or other person (this only talks about mapper, which is pretty questionable and there would soon be people making soundcloud, cutting it and uploading it as some another artist with "no, I did not cut it, it is some other person's cut".The minimum draining time for a map must be 30 seconds. If original version of the song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining time for the map must be 1 minute with an exception of official cuts.Was covering this as well. Official cut = exactly the same song you are mapping, but shortened by artist or someone else to use it in official source. This still allows you to cut maps on yourself if it will be longer than 1 minute. If there is a problem for someone to understand that it is equal to your wording, just simpler, the problem is on the other side, this is as obvious as it just could be.
Nevertheless mapping TV Size versions and so on is a bit lazy, but might have reasons - Including video, thus presenting the anime a little, but cutting them manually is just lazy and I did never see a reason to cut it unless there were really unmappable parts.
perhaps we misunderstood eachother.
When you say 'officially cut' songs, I think about TV sizes. I think about intros, I wanted to adress
short songs that have an intro, a vers, chourse and an outro in just above one minute. I thought that these
exceptionally short and full songs would be banned with this rule.
Oh yeah, the 'with exceptions' means that all other cuts can be done, but must be 1 minute and aboveSnaggletooth wrote:
Then I really think the word 'cut' is what strikes me odd here. I don't disagree with you, I think I misunderstood orWafu wrote:
This is almost the same thing I said, just longer and more complicated because it allows another exception.
If the cut was officially used somewhere, you are allowed to use it under 1 minute - That means any cut which were done by mapper or other person (this only talks about mapper, which is pretty questionable and there would soon be people making soundcloud, cutting it and uploading it as some another artist with "no, I did not cut it, it is some other person's cut".The minimum draining time for a map must be 30 seconds. If original version of the song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining time for the map must be 1 minute with an exception of official cuts.Was covering this as well. Official cut = exactly the same song you are mapping, but shortened by artist or someone else to use it in official source. This still allows you to cut maps on yourself if it will be longer than 1 minute. If there is a problem for someone to understand that it is equal to your wording, just simpler, the problem is on the other side, this is as obvious as it just could be.
Nevertheless mapping TV Size versions and so on is a bit lazy, but might have reasons - Including video, thus presenting the anime a little, but cutting them manually is just lazy and I did never see a reason to cut it unless there were really unmappable parts.
perhaps we misunderstood eachother.
When you say 'officially cut' songs, I think about TV sizes. I think about intros, I wanted to adress
short songs that have an intro, a vers, chourse and an outro in just above one minute. I thought that these
exceptionally short and full songs would be banned with this rule.
Maps don't even get abused enough to need this "1 minute cut" rule thing. It's pretty pointless. Just let mappers map what they want. A guideline at best, but still pointless.
Also, back on topic. No to the 1 minute rule that was originally proposed, and definitely no to this new one that you guys kinda took over the thread with.
Also, back on topic. No to the 1 minute rule that was originally proposed, and definitely no to this new one that you guys kinda took over the thread with.
I think 45 secs min is nice, 1min is too much to be a minimum
has there been a single comment anywhere yet in support of this exact rule?
Mercurial
Honestly, I wouldn't use only "votes" to decide what rule should work or not. They should come here and post there thoughts about it. There wasn't much of a problem with 40 second maps anyways. Yes they are short, but it doesn't mean they can't be fun. One main reason I can see people complaining is the total score being much smaller than average maps. So what? If score is the only reason to force this rule then i'm against it. Forcing such a rule would kill maps like these in the future and i've yet to see short maps become a plague to the BSS in general.
Just because something doesn't get abused right now is not a an argument against preventing that abuse in the future (regardless whether cutting a song is an abuse or not, just logically speaking).Lanturn wrote:
Maps don't even get abused enough to need this "1 minute cut" rule thing. It's pretty pointless. Just let mappers map what they want. A guideline at best, but still pointless.
Also, back on topic. No to the 1 minute rule that was originally proposed, and definitely no to this new one that you guys kinda took over the thread with.
This thread hasn't been taken over, Loctav proposed this new wording himself (x)
Sorry if I'm mistaken, but your wording still doesn't cover songs that haven't been cut at all, meaning a song that is originally (= not cut in any way) 1:02 long but has an unmappable intro, outro etc. won't be rankable. At least for me, "official cuts" excludes official non-cuts. Snaggletooth's wording covered this.Wafu wrote:
This is almost the same thing I said, ...Snaggletooth wrote:
The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the song was custom cut by the mapper, the minimum draining (play) time must exceed 1 minute. This is to prevent mappers from excessively and unreasonably cut songs and preventing a full experience, while
still allowing the option to shorten songs that have an overly repetitive beat/tune to prevent boredom while playing and mapping.The minimum draining time for a map must be 30 seconds. If original version of the song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining time for the map must be 1 minute with an exception of official cuts.Was covering this as well. Official cut = exactly the same song you are mapping, but shortened by artist or someone else to use it in official source. This still allows you to cut maps on yourself if it will be longer than 1 minute. If there is a problem for someone to understand that it is equal to your wording, just simpler, the problem is on the other side, this is as obvious as it just could be.
How about this:Wafu wrote:
... it allows another exception.
If the cut was officially used somewhere, you are allowed to use it under 1 minute - That means any cut which were done by mapper or other person (this only talks about mapper, which is pretty questionable and there would soon be people making soundcloud, cutting it and uploading it as some another artist with "no, I did not cut it, it is some other person's cut".
The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the song was custom cut by someone other than the official source, the minimum draining (play) time must exceed 1 minute.
It shouldn't be a problem to identify who is official and who isn't, right?Also, I'm against the percentage-limit, because (as previously mentioned) this immensly varies from song to song, I don't think you can set a general rule on something that diversified.
@Bonsai
"Sorry if I'm mistaken, but your wording still doesn't cover songs that haven't been cut at all, meaning a song that is originally (= not cut in any way) 1:02 long but has an unmappable intro, outro etc. won't be rankable. At least for me, "official cuts" excludes official non-cuts. Snaggletooth's wording covered this."
Official non-cuts are covered in my wording. There is said that the 1-minute applies only if official version is longer than 1 minute. That means if opening is 40 second long as a full version, it is excluded from 1 minute rule, as well as official cuts are excluded - that is here just to prove that if official cut is less than minute, but original is longer, you are still allowed to use it, because it is official. Same applies to full version which are shorter than minute - if is, 1 minute rule doesn't apply, because original version is shorter than minute.
Your wording actually conflicts with other rule. That is if less than 80% of mp3 is unused, you have to cut it. If original was shorter than one minute, you couldn't fulfill both rules. I covered the same stuff as Snaggletooth, just shorter.
"Sorry if I'm mistaken, but your wording still doesn't cover songs that haven't been cut at all, meaning a song that is originally (= not cut in any way) 1:02 long but has an unmappable intro, outro etc. won't be rankable. At least for me, "official cuts" excludes official non-cuts. Snaggletooth's wording covered this."
Official non-cuts are covered in my wording. There is said that the 1-minute applies only if official version is longer than 1 minute. That means if opening is 40 second long as a full version, it is excluded from 1 minute rule, as well as official cuts are excluded - that is here just to prove that if official cut is less than minute, but original is longer, you are still allowed to use it, because it is official. Same applies to full version which are shorter than minute - if is, 1 minute rule doesn't apply, because original version is shorter than minute.
Your wording actually conflicts with other rule. That is if less than 80% of mp3 is unused, you have to cut it. If original was shorter than one minute, you couldn't fulfill both rules. I covered the same stuff as Snaggletooth, just shorter.
So what about my example, a song that is one minute and two seconds long?Wafu wrote:
Official non-cuts are covered in my wording. There is said that the 1-minute applies only if official version is longer than 1 minute. That means if opening is 40 second long as a full version, it is excluded from 1 minute rule, ...
I see. But if you have to cut an already short song because of the 80%-rule, wouldn't that possibly be a case of not giving "sufficiently long gameplay experience" then? If not, what about excluding short songs from the 80%-rule? : \Wafu wrote:
Your wording actually conflicts with other rule. That is if less than 80% of mp3 is unused, you have to cut it. If original was shorter than one minute, you couldn't fulfill both rules. ...
You guys are overthinking a lot about this with ambiguous wordings.
I'd say we better keep the rule add it is, and let modders, Nominators and QAT to encourage mapping songs with a proper length, in case of the ridiculous cuts.
I'd say we better keep the rule add it is, and let modders, Nominators and QAT to encourage mapping songs with a proper length, in case of the ridiculous cuts.
As it is, not add, right?DakeDekaane wrote:
I'd say we better keep the rule add it is, and let modders, Nominators and QAT to encourage mapping songs with a proper length, in case of the ridiculous cuts.
things i wrote before noticing the typo
Wow, why?
This rule is based on stupid assumptions.
The poll never implied that the community is not willing to take maps of less than 1min length and there was no evidence in the first place that someone would take this poll to say that 30s maps should be banned.
What the community is doing here is taking Loctav's proposal and try to give some sense to it by adding extra criteria that give some more sense to the rule.
If you would actually do a poll whether the community wants this rule or not we might get a more representative result than the current poll that is pretty much unrelated to the suggested rule.
There were already many good arguments given why this rule should
This rule is based on stupid assumptions.
The poll never implied that the community is not willing to take maps of less than 1min length and there was no evidence in the first place that someone would take this poll to say that 30s maps should be banned.
What the community is doing here is taking Loctav's proposal and try to give some sense to it by adding extra criteria that give some more sense to the rule.
If you would actually do a poll whether the community wants this rule or not we might get a more representative result than the current poll that is pretty much unrelated to the suggested rule.
There were already many good arguments given why this rule should
Mercurial
Against the Sun has been qualified with such a RIDICULOUS CUT (About 2 friggin' minutes, with 46 seconds of draining time). Things like that one shouldn't be allowed.DakeDekaane wrote:
You guys are overthinking a lot about this with ambiguous wordings.
I'd say we better keep the rule add it is, and let modders, Nominators and QAT to encourage mapping songs with a proper length, in case of the ridiculous cuts.
I'd hope this could be just a guideline.
The question is what is the aim of this rule. Just simply forcing the map length to be over 1 minute or avoiding unreasonable cuts.
It would be better to be the latter one.
Avoiding ridiculous cuts is really a great idea. It shows the respect of the composer and the responsibility as a mapper or a member of the community.
There're maps I saw in my playing osu! that, some mappers simply cut the chorus part of a song and map it. This is not good imo. It's showing you are too lazy (maybe). At least you should map the first verse and chorus together ;w;
However, some songs are initially than 1 minute. If this become a rule, then we need to loop them. And I guess it's more ridiculous to loop a song than cut.
So I guess it could become a guideline with more abundant contents to show the ideas of the ("majority" of the) community that the ridiculous cuts are not wanted.
The question is what is the aim of this rule. Just simply forcing the map length to be over 1 minute or avoiding unreasonable cuts.
It would be better to be the latter one.
Avoiding ridiculous cuts is really a great idea. It shows the respect of the composer and the responsibility as a mapper or a member of the community.
There're maps I saw in my playing osu! that, some mappers simply cut the chorus part of a song and map it. This is not good imo. It's showing you are too lazy (maybe). At least you should map the first verse and chorus together ;w;
However, some songs are initially than 1 minute. If this become a rule, then we need to loop them. And I guess it's more ridiculous to loop a song than cut.
So I guess it could become a guideline with more abundant contents to show the ideas of the ("majority" of the) community that the ridiculous cuts are not wanted.
With a recently ranked map at an disappointing length of :45 seconds, and the excuse of "being to tired to map the whole thing" I think this should be a rule to avoid the flood, next thing you know, there might be a cut version of Dopamine to 0:40 seconds for shits and giggles (I will commit hara-kiri if I see that) because "Hurr durr, BN'z don't check long maps because BN "x" doesn't check 4 min, 8 diff mapsets." But if you can't can't map a long 4 minute song, at least cut to a game wise length like what I did with SOUND HOLIC feat. Mayumi Morinaga - Yukihana -SEKKA- for example (which an incredible 5:18 cut to 1:55). Sorry if I get anything wrong, it's my first time speaking out seriously on the forums and I don't want to see the shit fly with drama with people using This as an excuse. Case in point: "If you're going to make a cut, make it a reasonable cut"Regraz wrote:
Avoiding ridiculous cuts is really a great idea. It shows the respect of the composer and the responsibility as a mapper or a member of the community.
There're maps I saw in my playing osu! that, some mappers simply cut the chorus part of a song and map it. This is not good imo. It's showing you are too lazy (maybe). At least you should map the first verse and chorus together ;w;