I'd prefer it to be a hard minimum of 45 seconds and the recommended to be 1:00. 30 second songs do exist, but in the context of this game and the administration it seems like a large amount of invested time for the mappers, modders, BN, and QAT for such a short experience. I'd rather have more focus on longer songs/maps that will bring more entertainment vs. time invested.

Snaggletooth wrote:

then what about songs that are 1:12 but tze actual drain is 0:50 ? Would people then be forced to map 1 minute drain, which could potentially mean that the mapper would have to figure out how to map the intro/outro or possible breaks that have little to no beat density? Or does this only apply to cuts?

Because it's not a cut ver. it should be allowed to have 0:50 drain.

This new version of the rule is better yeah, since it just force to avoid cut version. Sounds good.

Nozhomi wrote:

Because it's not a cut ver. it should be allowed to have 0:50 drain.

This new version of the rule is better yeah, since it just force to avoid cut version. Sounds good.

Well then it should be worded diffrently. A songs full version can be over 1 minute, dosnt mean the drain is. it should specifically state that this only applies to cuts.

No. i mostly Play only Short Maps ( i like to enjoy short songs, and get a little fun than playing a 1 day map that it ended like a job ( oh finally its done )
Damaged ears/eyes/hands/nerfs/ ( waste of time ) .

Openings are technically correct and legitime versions and not cut versions. It should be noted they do not count as cut version.

I'm supporting the new proposal, with Garven's twist.

However, if there is no "official" version of an OP (which, in my example, would be 44 seconds) but is made from a cut from an extended version, would that could as a cut version or a legitimate opening ?

Stefan wrote:

Openings are technically correct and legitime versions and not cut versions. It should be noted they do not count as cut version.

Yeah, we should mention that it only applies for non-official cuts.

Apart from that, I pretty much agree with Loctav's current wording.
@Garven, I think that's not really thing to consider. Whether it is more work for others is firstly subjective (there might be instantly rankable beatmaps, but absolutely terrible ones and that's what determines whether the job of modders, BNs, QATs is going to be worth it). But why would we even consider that? Respectively, everyone is free to mod, bubble or qualify whatever he likes. For QATs it is more complicated, but that is limited by count and it is not that terrible to check 1 or 2 shorter maps than the others per whole page of qualified maps.

Chances are nothing I map would be affected by this rule, but that doesn't mean I'm for it.

Kind of sad that enough of the community dislikes short maps to the point that they support disallowing them from being ranked. Please tell me how the existence of short ranked maps affects you, how it causes you grief.

a poll that shows that a majority of people enjoy a certain type of map more than another does not mean that they dislike a different type of it, or that the people who did vote for that category should be ostracized as a result

heavily disagree\

glad to see the majority of the community reacted in the way that I theorized ages ago they were going to if something like this was proposed

Loctav wrote:

Let's fix the proposal up to the arguments brought up by others in this thread to the following:

The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the full version of a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute. This is so each map gives a sufficiently long gameplay experience. It also prevents people to cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song in a proper way.

Does that wording make sense?

this is absolutely, 100% a better idea. cutting a song just promotes laziness amongst mappers and encourages people to enjoy less of the song than the actual song has contentwise

Loctav wrote:

The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the full version of a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute. This is so each map provides a sufficiently long gameplay experience. This also prevents people from cutting songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song in a proper way.

^ I slightly altered the wording here, feels a tad better from the previous.

This rule makes a lot more sense then the original proposal in the first post (which I completely disagreed with).

I see no reason for a hard minimum of 45 seconds though. A minimum of 30 seconds is fine enough. I've had a lot of enjoyable gameplay experience in both osu!std and o!mania from songs under 45 seconds for me personally as a player, and I'm sure many other players have also, so I don't see why you would need a minimum of 45 seconds. Just because a map is short it doesn't mean the mapper didn't put effort into it, either.

I support the new proposal how it is.

xxdeathx wrote:

Chances are nothing I map would be affected by this rule, but that doesn't mean I'm for it.

Kind of sad that enough of the community dislikes short maps to the point that they support disallowing them from being ranked. Please tell me how the existence of short ranked maps affects you, how it causes you grief.

???? did you even read the thread?
there isnt a single person that agreed with the rule...

i dont really like the new suggestion either because it's so arbitrary, why is cutting a song a bad thing because of lazyness when it's still allowed for songs that are already that long in the first place? isn't that lazyness aswell then?

anyway at least it's better than the original suggestion.

I don't think the new wording is entirely addressing the issue about needless cutting. This map would still be rankable despite only 1 minute of the original 4:30 song being mapped. As seen in the Disqus comments of that map, this is kind of thing people have an issue with; it's not the length the song has been cut to, it's the amount of song being cut out. I think a better rule would be something along the lines of:


The 50% was some arbitrary number chosen, it can be changed as people see fit.

silmarilen wrote:

xxdeathx wrote:

Chances are nothing I map would be affected by this rule, but that doesn't mean I'm for it.

Kind of sad that enough of the community dislikes short maps to the point that they support disallowing them from being ranked. Please tell me how the existence of short ranked maps affects you, how it causes you grief.

???? did you even read the thread?
there isnt a single person that agreed with the rule...

i dont really like the new suggestion either because it's so arbitrary, why is cutting a song a bad thing because of lazyness when it's still allowed for songs that are already that long in the first place? isn't that lazyness aswell then?

anyway at least it's better than the original suggestion.

did you read? i was referring to this post, not the OP...if you want my response to that, please see p/4383468

Loctav wrote:

Let's fix the proposal up to the arguments brought up by others in this thread to the following:

The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the full version of a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute. This is so each map gives a sufficiently long gameplay experience. It also prevents people to cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song in a proper way.

Does that wording make sense?

I would make a NEW category of maps below 1 minute that has their ranking for people who ACTUALLY likes playing these maps -.-

Btw. These "reasons" why it is done like that are really really bad

CptSqBany wrote:

I would make a NEW category of maps below 1 minute that has their ranking for people who ACTUALLY likes playing these maps -.-

Why? As much as the original rule was silly, we don't explicitly want to encourage short maps. Does a 30 second map being in the same listing affect you in any negative way?

Well if you try to rank a beatmap which is like 30 seconds it should have atleast 5-6 diffs(with a proper spread ofc) not things like this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/178669 <-- 2 diffs.I personally think this is bs since there are a few gimmicky songs out there that are better in 30 seconds than full 3 minutes. So my suggestion would be: if the map is 45seconds or below you need a bigger spreading with atleast 6 diffs.

Lach wrote:

CptSqBany wrote:

I would make a NEW category of maps below 1 minute that has their ranking for people who ACTUALLY likes playing these maps -.-

Why? As much as the original rule was silly, we don't explicitly want to encourage short maps. Does a 30 second map being in the same listing affect you in any negative way?

People still want to conquer, who is better in Global, Country, Mods, Friends ranking. So if somebody would map Full PUPA opening, that is 30 seconds long, then it would be thrown to trash?

CptSqBany wrote:

People still want to conquer, who is better in Global, Country, Mods, Friends ranking. So if somebody would map Full PUPA opening, that is 30 seconds long, then it would be thrown to trash?

?????

People have purpose to map, if somebody wants to map a song he wants this song to be ranked, if a song CANT be ranked because rules, then why would he map it anyways... It would be wasting time

Umaru-chan wrote:

Well if you try to rank a beatmap which is like 30 seconds it should have atleast 5-6 diffs(with a proper spread ofc) not things like this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/178669 <-- 2 diffs.I personally think this is bs since there are a few gimmicky songs out there that are better in 30 seconds than full 3 minutes. So my suggestion would be: if the map is 45seconds or below you need a bigger spreading with atleast 6 diffs.

That wouldn't work. There are some kind of music you can't do too much (Like the one you linked).
How would you do 6 diffs for a super calm short song? Beginner, Easy, Easy+, Normal, Advanced and Hard?

CptSqBany wrote:

People have purpose to map, if somebody wants to map a song he wants this song to be ranked, if a song CANT be ranked because rules, then why would he map it anyways... It would be wasting time

Not sure if it fits, but mapping doesn't always mean "to rank"

Loctav wrote:

The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the full version of a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute. This is so each map gives a sufficiently long gameplay experience. It also prevents people to cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song in a proper way.

Definitely agree with this one, since allows minimum of 30 seconds but doesn't allow cutting a long song to something below 1 minute

I do agree with this, however; I believe that since 30 seconds maps have a degree of entertainment value to it since most of them are quite gimmicky or uhh just funny in general. I believe if one would like to "rank" a 30 seconds map, they should be able to do so HOWEVER, send them to a completely different category of maps so those maps won't be categorized as "osu! Official/Ranked Beatmaps". But not in pending! It should have a slot of their own. Solves everybody's problems.

your suggestion seems like too much effort for maps that short

Loctav wrote:

The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the full version of a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute. This is so each map gives a sufficiently long gameplay experience. It also prevents people to cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song in a proper way.

This is way too better from the actual rule, it makes justice for true short maps lol not like these beatmaps https://osu.ppy.sh/s/88299

I disgree, even with the new proposal of limiting to 1 minute if the song is 1 minute or longer.

If you want to stop people from excessively cutting songs out of lazyness simply forbid that or, better, limit how much of a song you're allowed to cut. Something like that:

Wafu wrote:

@Garven, I think that's not really thing to consider. Whether it is more work for others is firstly subjective (there might be instantly rankable beatmaps, but absolutely terrible ones and that's what determines whether the job of modders, BNs, QATs is going to be worth it). But why would we even consider that? Respectively, everyone is free to mod, bubble or qualify whatever he likes. For QATs it is more complicated, but that is limited by count and it is not that terrible to check 1 or 2 shorter maps than the others per whole page of qualified maps.

You do realize that not all beatmaps are "perfect" from the get-go, right? You'll also have maps that take huge amounts of effort from all sides to balance out the ones that slip through with ease. On a personal level, it feels like a waste of time looking through a 30 second beatmap set when there are sets out there that actually have a lot more thought and effort behind them. I would much rather promote a map set like that rather than some throwaway map that people will play once and toss aside. From the more practical end, I'm coming in from the time investment angle - time may be a nearly infinite source for you, but for others it is worth much more and I would prefer to spend time on a mapset that carries more impact than what effectively adds up to a quick jingle.

uggghh noooo i love -1min maps ;----;

Lach wrote:

CptSqBany wrote:

People still want to conquer, who is better in Global, Country, Mods, Friends ranking. So if somebody would map Full PUPA opening, that is 30 seconds long, then it would be thrown to trash?

?????

CptSqany, you did not say why would new group of short maps be needed, that's what Lach wanted to hear.

@Garven uhm, but that still is really subjective, I mean, whether people will like the map or not. That is referring back to the poll at the beginning - Less people will play and repeat it because they prefer different length, but those who voted for short maps shouldn't be punched in the face by making their favorite maps urankable. That will be equal for QATs - some might appreciate short maps and because it is just a minority, it does not mean that if you, as a subject, do not prefer it, it should be instantly urankable.

Also "You do realize that not all beatmaps are "perfect" from the get-go, right?" I exactly said that in my post. I said that the quality of map is what determines whether the job of certain people is worth it or not. To be more accurate, if we qualify good short map, people might or might not get back to it, that depends on song, how challenging it is and the skill group it is for. - Obviously if you make ultra easy map, it will be appropriate mainly for newbies, so they play it once or twice and then don't play it at all, but that is because it would be too easy for them - It anyway did its purpose, provide newbies really easy map, that it is not played by majority does not mean it is useless. But if you make a map that is 4 minutes long, with random jumps, overmapped streams and variable (insensible) rhythms, thus making it unplayable, it doesn't have to be played often either. What I want to say it is that I exactly DO realize that not all beatmaps are perfect, but that's the bigger issue than short maps being qualified. Some people might skip short song because it is short, same can happen with very long maps, but after all, mapping a short song unless it is a cut is not lazy or doesn't mean mapper put less effort to it than other mappers for longer maps. If he cannot get longer song (or destroy it by looping), he does have no choice, so that instantly means he did not put enough effort to it? My opinion is that effort is not related to song length. This could be compared to using symmetry in maps, isn't it lazy to copy most patterns and just flip them on the other side, thus shortening the work by half or more if you copy whole parts (chorus etc.)? Even if it was 4 minute map, shouldn't you be bothered checking it the same way as in case of short maps? (Mapping 30 seconds and copying it to the whole map is not that hard job honestly)

Why is there a need to change this rule anyways? I really dont see the point behind this. Even the new wording dosnt change the limit of 30 second, it only adds a paragraph that opens more questions and conflicts. You can't even go with a set percentage of drain as Granger proposed, considering how every song is diffrent.

My suggestion is:

Forbid cuts that make the song shorter than a minute.
Don't even touch individual songstl that legitametlz only are about one minute.

neonat wrote:

Am fine with the limit of minimum 1 minute

But why?! Is there even a reason to enforce rules like these because of an unrelated poll?

See, this is the real problem osu is facing regarding rules. People want to influence the game by creating rules, which are completely unnecessary and fills no other function but boosting ones contributor status. I can't even comprehend how this idea came to mind...

I need to hear solid reasoning other than 'obviously we need to BAN this maplenght because this random poll shows us that they aren't the most popular lenght'. It's not something you'd expect from staff members...

Nooo! No, no, no! Some >1 minute maps are the most fun maps of osu!
Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/111631

You would deny future maps like this their well-earned Ranked-status simply for being too short? That's unfair, that would mean the hard work put into maps like this will go unrecognized.
It would also deter people from making >1 minute maps, leading to less diversity. And if we restricted diversity, osu! would soon consist only of generic TVSize anime intros. We shouldn't restrict diversity.

Loctav wrote:

The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the full version of a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute. This is so each map gives a sufficiently long gameplay experience. It also prevents people to cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song in a proper way.

Now we're talking, this sounds so much better.

Snaggletooth wrote:

Why is there a need to change this rule anyways? I really dont see the point behind this. Even the new wording dosnt change the limit of 30 second, it only adds a paragraph that opens more questions and conflicts. You can't even go with a set percentage of drain as Granger proposed, considering how every song is diffrent.

Because there are mappers (like Loctav) who doesn't like <1 minute short maps, because most of them are vague and give next to no gameplay at all (There are a few exceptions to this, though).

I personally do enjoy more 1 minute long maps than 4/5 minute long ones.

Snaggletooth wrote:

Why is there a need to change this rule anyways? I really dont see the point behind this. Even the new wording dosnt change the limit of 30 second, it only adds a paragraph that opens more questions and conflicts. You can't even go with a set percentage of drain as Granger proposed, considering how every song is diffrent.

Because there are mappers (like Loctav) who doesn't like <1 minute short maps, because most of them are vague and give next to no gameplay at all (There are a few exceptions to this, though).

I personally do enjoy more 1 minute long maps than 4/5 minute long ones.[/quote]

I dislike osu!mania, i want it removed. I dislike the pp-system, therefore we should go back to ranked total score. I dislike maps that are longer than 2 minutes, those should be unrankable. You see how bullshit this argument is? But that dosnt matter because I aint no BN/QAT/Mod/Loctav. (And no, this was ment more generally, its not a particular responds to you).

There is no legit reason to keep short songs out of osu. The people who dont like to play them, wont. And the claim that its a waste of BNs time is bull as well considering that thanks to the short playtime, the time for modding is signifficantly lower than modding a full 4 minute song-set with 5 diffs.

People shouldn't cut original songs unless it's an official cut like from videogames.

Cloudchaser wrote:

People shouldn't cut original songs unless it's an official cut like from videogames.

Sometimes is pointless to map songs that are pure loops, though.

Mercurial wrote:

Cloudchaser wrote:

People shouldn't cut original songs unless it's an official cut like from videogames.

Sometimes is pointless to map songs that are pure loops, though.

I have to disagree with this
This requires the need to be creative, and do something different, as that'll make the map more fun to play
For example, my ranked map *CLICK*
The Original song is 7 seconds
There are 4-5 loops (5th being a fade out) but by usage of SV changes and overall changes all parts feel really different (perhaps not for easy though, but you get what I mean right?)

baraatje123 wrote:

I have to disagree with this
This requires the need to be creative, and do something different, as that'll make the map more fun to play
For example, my ranked map *CLICK*
The Original song is 7 seconds
There are 4-5 loops (5th being a fade out) but by usage of SV changes and overall changes all parts feel really different (perhaps not for easy though, but you get what I mean right?)

I think Mercurial is reffering to cases where you have unnecessary many loops, taking your map which would be two minutes long for example. You wouldn't map a 7 second loop as many times to have two minutes in the end, do you?

Nope
That's a bit excessive
Unless you loop it to approval size and make ir special
Not sure if that's possible though

baraatje123 wrote:

Nope
That's a bit excessive
Unless you loop it to approval size and make ir special
Not sure if that's possible though

It is. But that is ridiculously stupid, even as Collab.

Loctav wrote:

The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds. If the full version of a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute. This is so each map gives a sufficiently long gameplay experience. It also prevents people to cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song in a proper way.

But like Snaggletooth writes, there are songs that are over 1:00 but may not have 1:00 of drain time due to breaks and/or intro's. I don't think this should be a hard rule. A guideline? Definitely, but an absolute rule? No.

Rule: The minimum draining (play) time for a map must be 30 seconds.
Guideline: If the potential drain time for a song is longer than 1 minute, the minimum draining (play) time for the map must be 1 minute.

I know that sounds weird when you read it the first time, but what I mean is, If there is potential for the song's drain time to be over 1 minute, then it must have a drain time of over 1 minute. Of course, this still leaves some subjectivity in the air. Some people may choose not to map a section of the song, calling it a break, while others may think the break is can be mapped. For situations like this, I think the proposed rule for cut versions of a song should be more of a guideline that at the BN's/QAT's discretion, can be a potential cause for disqualification.

Regarding time-investment angle Garven brought up, I haven't heard of anyone who takes as much time modding a 30 second mapset as a 3 minute mapset. Time spent modding depends a lot more on the map's quality and mappers' decisions than it does their drain time. Sure, maybe shorter maps carry less impact because there isn't as much drain time to actually express the song, but what's wrong with that? Also, just like how for some people, time is seemingly an infinite source, for others who do not have that luxury, mapping short songs is just more practical if they still want to contribute to the mapping community.

Granger wrote:

I disgree, even with the new proposal of limiting to 1 minute if the song is 1 minute or longer.

If you want to stop people from excessively cutting songs out of lazyness simply forbid that or, better, limit how much of a song you're allowed to cut. Something like that:

The final drain time of a song must be at least 85% of the full version song.

Wording it like this would disallow TV-Sizes and "short ver." songs completely.
Most Animu TV Size songs have a longer, 3+ minute version, so that would throw things off. TV Size length cant reach these 85% of the 3+ minutes at all.

Really though, just disallow very obvious cuts around 1 minute but allow natually short songs with at least 30 seconds. Noone will be hurt.