Currently, the ranking criteria states:

Only use the Source field if the song comes from or was made famous by a video game, movie, or series. Website names are not an acceptable Artist nor Source.

I am proposing that it is changed to the following two rules:

The Source field is meant to reflect the most prominent or popular place/work in which the beatmap song is featured. If a song is featured in an anime for instance, the name of the anime is to be what is cited in the Source field, over anything else - whether that is any albums by the artist or an OST track for the anime itself. If a song is featured in any albums or EPs, the first album/EP to be released (chronologically) with the song is to be cited in the Source field.

Websites are not acceptable artists, or sources. The original composer (for artist) or the presiding album/feature name (for source) is to be used instead.

This is a recurring issue in Source fields where the most logical answer for citing with them is not the case currently represented within the rules. This way, a feature/movie/anime that makes a particular song famous is adequately represented within the Source tag, and ordinary songs from standard albums are appropriately tagged for proper searching and resolving as well.

How should the songs in the below situations cite its source?


The long version of an anime opening;
The Extended Mix of a rhythm game original song;
The song being mapped is released first, then it's used in rhythm games;
The song being mapped is released first, then its cut version is used in rhythm games;
The song is original (not remix/rearrange of Touhou original songs), but it uses some neta from Touhou.

These situations can absolutely discuss specifically, but I think it's better to be discussed in the first place.

Long version of an anime opening is still affixed with the anime name as its source tag.

Extended mix of a rhythm game original song is still affixed with the game name as its source tag.

The song being mapped first has its source listed as the most prominent feature/appearance at the time of ranking, and is not adjusted afterwards. Cut is irrelevant.

The song that uses elements from a Touhou piece still lists its album or other major prominent feature as its source.

It's essentially wherever the most logical placement of attribution comes from. Track is a longer mix of a shorter identical piece features in a game? Still made famous by the game, so the source is the game.

im all for this i never understood why we could not put the album as a source

I somewhat agree and not agree with this. I agree that source should be for example anime, which contained the song especially composed for this anime. Also I'd add that parody songs (MADs, etc.) should use the original anime, same for unofficial Touhou songs.

Also the last thing I would add to this rule: Let's say you are mapping ありのままで from Frozen, you should not use "Frozen" as source but "アナと雪の女王", because ありのままで was made for japanese version of Frozen, which is called like this. So basically, if you are mapping song which is from another version of the movie/anime etc. than the first version released, you should still use the name of version where it was.

But I definitely disagree about putting album to the source. This fits to tags. Source fits just for another work it was made for or which was made based on the work. Basically it is less confusing if we don't put album to source. I'd say it is only supposed to be game/anime/move/visual novel and similar. Since it was like this all the time, it would be confusing just because someone like the song, sees the source: "wow, it might be a good game, the soundtrack is really cool", irl that person might just feel the soundtrack sounds atmospheric (for example in horror games), but then he finds the source and finds out it is not the game, movie, visual novel, anime, but it is just album, if he sees no source, then it's obvious that it was not in anything so if he finds album, he might check map description or tags.

Let's look on grumd's map. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/96080
He just used Alice: Madness Returns wallpaper as a background, so basically, player who doesn't know it might say: "What game/anime is it? I'll check source, music sounds somewhat psycho, it might be cool horror I'll check source", after he checks it, he sees it was not in anything. But if you'd put album as source, he might just go on MAL, check what anime is it - finds nothing, then looks for a game, finds nothing again, so only thing he will know is that it was in album XY, but he didn't look for that, he looked for source where the song appeared.

I'd probably welcome adding extended metadata. So the metadata tab would be a bit bigger, containing composer, arranger, album etc. This would fix the confuse and the player would be informed more. However this should be more custom, so player doesn't have to fill everything so he doesn't repeat some of things.

Well.. just threw my cookie here.

Does it have to be a must? Can it be optional to fill Source.

I 100% support that Albums should be used in the source if it doesn't have a more dominant source.

Source literally is defined as "a place, person, or thing from which something comes or can be obtained."

The song comes from the album.

Wafu wrote:

Let's look on grumd's map. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/96080
He just used Alice: Madness Returns wallpaper as a background, so basically, player who doesn't know it might say: "What game/anime is it? I'll check source, music sounds somewhat psycho, it might be cool horror I'll check source", after he checks it, he sees it was not in anything. But if you'd put album as source, he might just go on MAL, check what anime is it - finds nothing, then looks for a game, finds nothing again, so only thing he will know is that it was in album XY, but he didn't look for that, he looked for source where the song appeared.

This is why you use a search engine like google before using specific sites.

----

Also shouldn't this be labeled as [Rule Change] ?

Now I exactly know why I do not like to post...

100% support. I just found it odd from day one that albums are not fit sources for a song when there's nothing else to put there in most cases.

Wafu wrote:

I somewhat agree and not agree with this. I agree that source should be for example anime, which contained the song especially composed for this anime. Also I'd add that parody songs (MADs, etc.) should use the original anime, same for unofficial Touhou songs.

This also brings up a good discussion.

Parody songs (of those what you're aiming towards) features lots of work from the source anime such as speech files, and such. However, it isn't directly from it, nor is it affiliated with any song featured from the source material used. It is simply a made up piece of work. Do we still credit this for the source?
Like for example. Let's take - http://osu.ppy.sh/b/63131
It uses voices, and some background music (that I don't believe is from anything) so do we use the source based on the voices?

And if it does have easily notible source background music, do we use that for the source? Ex. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/83651 | This uses the default fighting music from Super Mario RPG, but uses sound files from Index/Railgun.

Wafu wrote:

Also the last thing I would add to this rule: Let's say you are mapping ありのままで from Frozen, you should not use "Frozen" as source but "アナと雪の女王", because ありのままで was made for japanese version of Frozen, which is called like this. So basically, if you are mapping song which is from another version of the movie/anime etc. than the first version released, you should still use the name of version where it was.

I agree completely on this. If the song is the featured version from a specific language adaption of the movie, then it should be used as the source instead of the first language.

Wafu wrote:

Now I exactly know why I do not like to post...

Don't worry about this, I just explained something wrong, just said a bullshit, so I'm blaming myself, nothing aims against you.

Lanturn wrote:

And if it does have easily notible source background music, do we use that for the source? Ex. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/83651 | This uses the default fighting music from Super Mario RPG, but uses sound files from Index/Railgun.

Oh.. I didn't think about this. Well in this case we should probably just put these into tags. But for songs that are based directly on only one source, for example http://osu.ppy.sh/s/119891 I think we should put it to the source, so mostly Touhou songs as I mentioned here. Same would fit to both official and unofficial songs based on anime/visual novels, like http://vgmdb.net/album/44202 - Original was only in one visual novel/anime, so the source should still be that.

Also if the song was not in the anime/visualnovel/game, but is related directly to only this certain anime/vn/game, we should still put it to source.
For example 釘宮理恵 - Two Moons, all the songs are related to ゼロの使い魔, but not all from the album were heard in song, however, it was directly released only for this certain anime, so source should in my opinion be ゼロの使い魔. However, if it would be related to more anime than one, we will have to find alternative, we cannot just throw the one away and keep the "better" one. So basically these would fit to tags and album probably should be in source.

This also reminded me one problem. The song was both in visual novel and anime, but it is remake, so to put as source? Basically it is not that much problem because mostly the visual novels and their related anime have same name. But there are also cases that the names are different (ef - a fairy tale of the two. X ef - a tale of memories., while both used same song in that). This means we should use the older one, it just has higher priority. For case the album was whole related to anime, but contained also remake of VN song (let's say ALL songs on album were in anime, but only one was in BOTH anime and visual novel), then we should choose anime, no matter what is older, because it is clear that artist aims the album to be related to anime.

And the last thing I wanted to say in this post is that we should maybe have ability to put multiple sources. This would make everything simpler. To be honest, "tags" are not always the best.. you cannot exactly know if tag is name of anime developer or if it is the album etc. This would also solve problem about MADs. We'd just put the sources it is related to. So above mentioned Accelerator's Bittan Bittan would have first source "Super Mario RPG" and second source "To Aru Majutsu no Index". But this is more like hypothetical, it would be problem to show the source in game, the line would be overspammed. Maybe there could be somewhat source list in-game, you'd just simply click on source and it would show "To Aru Majutsu no Index, Super Mario RPG", well.. but this would probably take a long time to realize.

Well.. maybe there are some more things to discuss, so let's discuss And about the album in source, it will be just unusual for players who are longer here, so they might be a bit confused.. but anyway, it is about getting used to it, but irl I didn't realize it is not that bad

This is getting way more complex than it needs to be. The most prominent usage/aspect of the track should be listed as its source. If it was in a VN and an anime, whichever one is more immediately recognizable (probably the anime) will be used as the source. If something is using sound effects from another source or is a parody or whatever, the source is still the most prominent place in which the item is featured - as long as it is not a website.

Source tags will still remain optional.

Let's take a song X which was used in two different games. Which one should be the source ? I would say it's the most known one, but if the mapper only knows Game2 but not Game1, the Source for him would be Game2 no matter if Game1 is much more popular.

_Gezo_ wrote:

Let's take a song X which was used in two different games. Which one should be the source ? I would say it's the most known one, but if the mapper only knows Game2 but not Game1, the Source for him would be Game2 no matter if Game1 is much more popular.

Well.. I don't think we should consider the game's popularity. The source should be the the work, where the song was first, this would discriminate the originals. Only exception should be if the song you are mapping sounds different in the newer work. Just my opinion, but logically it should be like this, we cannot discriminate original work if the newer one is more popular.

_Gezo_ wrote:

Let's take a song X which was used in two different games. Which one should be the source ? I would say it's the most known one, but if the mapper only knows Game2 but not Game1, the Source for him would be Game2 no matter if Game1 is much more popular.

modding will quickly reveal which one is the most prominent use, and if all else fails, the chronologically earliest of the two can be used

While we're on the topic of source, can we please stop using 'BMS' as one? It looks stupid and isn't accurate as BMS in it's stand alone usage is just a file (in the case of that song using the actual eventname would be more accurate and better, right?).

apaffy wrote:

While we're on the topic of source, can we please stop using 'BMS' as one? It looks stupid and isn't accurate as BMS in it's stand alone usage is just a file (in the case of that song using the actual eventname would be more accurate and better, right?).

mmm but that will cause a lot of inconsistency with the already ranked mapsets

Natsu wrote:

mmm but that will cause a lot of inconsistency with the already ranked mapsets

It'd be kind of like how Nico Nico Douga and other website names are for the source (We stopped using them even though there are so many already). I think BMS, because it is just a file format would be worse no?

Idk, just dropping my 2 cents that I agree with apaffy on this one.

So how about usage between its original language, and its official translated title? "Most popular" would be based on the language the player played or watch the series.

Examples: Original | English(or other language?)
Zelda no Densetsu: Kamigami no Triforce | The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Ao no Exorcist | Blue Exorcist
Monster Farm | Monster Rancher
Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica | Puella Magi Madoka Magica
Kami Nomi zo Shiru Sekai | The World God Only Knows

I honestly believe the source of everything must be from their original language, regardless if the translation is more popular. What do you guys think?

@ Lanturn:

Ratchet & Clank : Going Commando | Ratchet & Clank : Locked and Loaded | Ratchet & Clank 2

These refer to the same game, are in the same language yet the naming is different based on where you got the game:

1. The first one is the NA version, which it originates from.
2. The second one is the EU version, but the name is in English as well.
3. The third is what it's in certain countries (such as France)

Your question makes this case too vague, because all three names are in the same language. The only thing that differs is the region. I think your idea is okay, but if so the source should then be the region where it originates (JP, NA, SK, AU, EU etc.), instead of the language. Also, for certain animes, some have other translations (you've mentioned KamiNomi which is « Que sa volonté soit faite » in French and thus different from the English translation).

This is pretty delicate to deal with to be sincere. I think anime should retain its original name but games should be treated differently:

Let's take Pokémon: The original name is Pocket Monsters; but even Japanese people use the Pokémon word (The Pokémon Company tells you everything, it's a real thing). Should you call it Pocket Monsters or Pokémon ?

Where it originates from would have been the best way to word this, thanks for pointing that out. It's honestly what I meant when I made that question, though I failed to word it correctly I guess.

Shouldn't it be Pocket Monsters then?

They may call it Pokémon themselves as a contraction, but that doesn't make it the official title of the game. It's more like an official nickname like Oreimo or Haganai even (which is their official english dubbed names if I recall correctly). Or should we let one or two small cases slip by if they even surpass the official title in popularity?

Looking through this...

Lanturn wrote:

So how about usage between its original language, and its official translated title? "Most popular" would be based on the language the player played or watch the series.
...
I honestly believe the source of everything must be from their original language, regardless if the translation is more popular. What do you guys think?

I'd want to say agree and not agree. Agree because I just use the first source (in this case rhythm game series, call one of them; DJMAX); when the track first time is used.
Some tracks in DJMAX are available on another series, like DJMAX Online, Portable, Trilogy, and Technika. But, if we use original language (even writen untranslated), it doesn't make any sense. How about making this as a guideline?
Dang I can't arrange words correctly.

Discussions have reached a halt here. Flaming this for now. Give me a poke if anyone wants to continue moving this forward and I will bring the thread back appropriately.