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Absolute positioning for mouse, will it ever be possible?

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pandaBee
There was that guy that drilled his stylus inside his mouse and played with it on top of his tablet. So that's basically your absolute positioning. Obv your mouse has to be unplugged.
ZenithPhantasm

pandaBee wrote:

There was that guy that drilled his stylus inside his mouse and played with it on top of his tablet. So that's basically your absolute positioning
Purple
From what he tells me it doesn't work too well but he has to use it due to hand injuries from rock climbing.
Mahogany

Dephix wrote:

How about 2 sensors for 1 mouse?
I'm unsure. I'm not a tech-knowledgeable guy, but the way I see it, for absolute positioning, you need the surface to be the thing transmitting the data, not the sensor. The sensor has no idea where it is, it just knows where it's moving. You'd need some sort of surface that's able to read inputs to be capable of absolute positioning.
The Gambler
The thread continues here.

t/280393&start=0

I did it at first as it was a proof of concept that worked, hampered by the really shitty mouse shell of choice and now lies in the abandoned wasteland.

Also, the height difference between the tablet and the table surface is awkward and takes time to get used to.
ZenithPhantasm

The Gambler wrote:

The thread continues here.

t/280393&start=0

I did it at first as it was a proof of concept that worked, hampered by the really shitty mouse shell of choice and now lies in the abandoned wasteland.

Also, the height difference between the tablet and the table surface is awkward and takes time to get used to.
You could always glue/doubleside tape a cloth surface or a sheet of sandblasted plastic/aluminum on top.

Dephix wrote:

How about 2 sensors for 1 mouse?
Doesn't work. You would need something that tells the mouse its exact position in a given place which almost certainly requires a digitizer for anything feasible (unless you want indoor gps or something which I heard has alot of input lag).
ZenithPhantasm
(Accidentlaly double posted due to lag) feel free to delete.
FieryLight
I think 2 sensors could work. Although there'd be quite a bit of latency as your mouse processes/calculates where it is and then sends the proper signal for your cursor to move there. But of course, it would never be as accurate as a tablet puck thing because we don't even have completely perfect sensors. Use any "perfect sensor" mouse for a long enough time and eventually you'll find it was perfect enough (and obviously for this to be the sensor and not human error you'd have to get a robot to move the mouse purely by translating and not rotating). Also the mouse would have to keep track of where you are and there'd have to be a starting position and you'd have to never lift the mouse. Why? Because if your mouse wasn't in a starting position how would your mouse know which direction you're going when both sensors detect you moving up?

Anyway, that's just my guess but I don't think any company will ever make such a mouse and I probably didn't think of the loads of other problems that would be encountered with such a mouse.
chainpullz
Mouse and tablet sensors are fundamentally different. Both compute the location of your cursor so many times per second. A mouse computes location by taking the last computed location and using a velocity vector obtained from sensor data. A tablet doesn't need your last known location to compute your current location. Both sensors have some amount of error on every calculation. The difference is that the error from the mouse sensor adds up because it's having to use the previous computed location to find the new one whereas a tablet essentially throws out the old location and computes a new on from scratch.

So to answer your question, no, it won't ever be possible. If you were to replace the sensor technology of a mouse with one that supported absolute positioning it would lose it's identity as a mouse.
Topic Starter
Dephix

FieryLight wrote:

I think 2 sensors could work. Although there'd be quite a bit of latency as your mouse processes/calculates where it is and then sends the proper signal for your cursor to move there. But of course, it would never be as accurate as a tablet puck thing because we don't even have completely perfect sensors. Use any "perfect sensor" mouse for a long enough time and eventually you'll find it was perfect enough (and obviously for this to be the sensor and not human error you'd have to get a robot to move the mouse purely by translating and not rotating). Also the mouse would have to keep track of where you are and there'd have to be a starting position and you'd have to never lift the mouse. Why? Because if your mouse wasn't in a starting position how would your mouse know which direction you're going when both sensors detect you moving up?

Anyway, that's just my guess but I don't think any company will ever make such a mouse and I probably didn't think of the loads of other problems that would be encountered with such a mouse.
maybe 1 more button on the mouse for repositioning and reset
Deva
Theres seriously no point in this. Just get good.
ithgyu

HK_ wrote:

Theres seriously no point in this. Just get good.
well there is a point to it, the main advantage between mouse and tablet is absolute positioning, therefore if mouse had absolute positioning, it would be easier to develop muscle memory. And please, get good yourself before you tell others to
Deva
fite me m8
The Gambler
Just do what Mahogany described/what I did and there's your absolute positioning.
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

Theres seriously no point in this. Just get good.
What? Personally I find the prospect of absolute positioning on a mouse to be very interesting.
ZenithPhantasm

II Jelli II wrote:

HK_ wrote:

Theres seriously no point in this. Just get good.
well there is a point to it, the main advantage between mouse and tablet is absolute positioning, therefore if mouse had absolute positioning, it would be easier to develop muscle memory. And please, get good yourself before you tell others to
It would also make some map possible for mouse users. Some maps give no breaks to counter mouse drift.
chainpullz
I hear the higher your dpi the less mouse drift matters. :p
Yuudachi-kun

The Gambler wrote:

Just do what Mahogany described/what I did and there's your absolute positioning.
Kradfiz
If you want a mouse with absolute positioning, you can try this.

I use it as tablet, but there are options to set mouse (comes with tablet) to pen mode, like so:

The Gambler

Kradfiz wrote:

If you want a mouse with absolute positioning, you can try this.

I use it as tablet, but there are options to set mouse (comes with tablet) to pen mode, like so:

Doesn't look like he owns an Intuos 3, does he? Also those are hard to find nowadays. My method is cheaper.
chainpullz

Kradfiz wrote:

If you want a mouse with absolute positioning, you can try this.

I use it as tablet, but there are options to set mouse (comes with tablet) to pen mode, like so:

That's not an absolute positioning mouse though. It's a tablet using the mouse as a pen. Any sort of absolute positioning system is going to need an array of sensors (ie. a tablet) to handle the positioning aspect.
Kradfiz

chainpullz wrote:

That's not an absolute positioning mouse though. It's a tablet using the mouse as a pen. Any sort of absolute positioning system is going to need an array of sensors (ie. a tablet) to handle the positioning aspect.
I apologise but I do not understand the difference between absolute positioning and using mouse like pen. I use the mouse on the tablet and it goes to the same space on screen each time I go to a space on the tablet. Can someone explain how this is different from absolute positioning? :?
-Makishima S-
I apologise but I do not understand the difference between absolute positioning and using mouse like pen.

Osu!Wiki wrote:

The biggest difference that a tablet has over a mouse is that it features absolute tracking. This means that every point on the tablet corresponds to a particular point on the screen. If you lift the pen outside of the sensitive range, then put it down on another part of the tablet, the cursor will "jump" to that location. This is opposed to mice, which rely on relative tracking.
Explanation:

Mouse in like almost all cases provide relative positioning since you cannot move from spot [X1:Y1] to spot [X2:Y2] without moving your cursor. Every position change require your corsor to MOVE.
Absolute positioning on tablets allows you to change cursor position without moving it. You touch spot [X1:Y1] - cursor is instantly in this spot, right after this you touch spot [X2:Y2] and cursor will jump there without visible movement.

I think i took it right.
Purple

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

From what he tells me it doesn't work too well but he has to use it due to hand injuries from rock climbing.
Wrong on both accounts. you have the memory of a goldfish

It works exactly like it's supposed to, the problem is that if you change mouse shells, the pen has to be located exactly right relative to your hand position, otherwise (form my experience) you will mess up your muscle memory and it's really obnoxious

I started using it because as I started rock climbing my finger steadiness went through the ground and I didn't wanna go back to regular mouse aiming
ZenithPhantasm

Purple wrote:

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

From what he tells me it doesn't work too well but he has to use it due to hand injuries from rock climbing.
Wrong on both accounts. you have the memory of a goldfish

It works exactly like it's supposed to, the problem is that if you change mouse shells, the pen has to be located exactly right relative to your hand position, otherwise (form my experience) you will mess up your muscle memory and it's really obnoxious

I started using it because as I started rock climbing my finger steadiness went through the ground and I didn't wanna go back to regular mouse aiming
learn to mouse scrub
Endaris

[Taiga] wrote:

I apologise but I do not understand the difference between absolute positioning and using mouse like pen.

Osu!Wiki wrote:

The biggest difference that a tablet has over a mouse is that it features absolute tracking. This means that every point on the tablet corresponds to a particular point on the screen. If you lift the pen outside of the sensitive range, then put it down on another part of the tablet, the cursor will "jump" to that location. This is opposed to mice, which rely on relative tracking.
Explanation:

Mouse in like almost all cases provide relative positioning since you cannot move from spot [X1:Y1] to spot [X2:Y2] without moving your cursor. Every position change require your corsor to MOVE.
Absolute positioning on tablets allows you to change cursor position without moving it. You touch spot [X1:Y1] - cursor is instantly in this spot, right after this you touch spot [X2:Y2] and cursor will jump there without visible movement.

I think i took it right.
It's not wrong but it doesn't explain the issue of relative positioning as mouse would have absolute positioning if you didn't lift it up and had a fix starting point. Your cursor movements depens on where you move your mouse relative to it's orientation though. Turning the mouse by 20° and moving the sensor in the same way will yield different results from it not turning.
As people aren't able to hold the mouse perfectly in the same orientation all the time the mouse will drift into some direction over time depending on what the player does(there's an explanation on rsi-chans profile). Therefore every move you make is relative to the position and orientation your mouse had on the previous position and your mouse will end up in a different position compared to its starting position after you made a couple of moves with your cursor starting and ending in the same position(you can easily confirm it by making like 30 halfcircles with your mouse).
chainpullz

Endaris wrote:

It's not wrong but it doesn't explain the issue of relative positioning as mouse would have absolute positioning if you didn't lift it up and had a fix starting point. Your cursor movements depens on where you move your mouse relative to it's orientation though. Turning the mouse by 20° and moving the sensor in the same way will yield different results from it not turning.
As people aren't able to hold the mouse perfectly in the same orientation all the time the mouse will drift into some direction over time depending on what the player does(there's an explanation on rsi-chans profile). Therefore every move you make is relative to the position and orientation your mouse had on the previous position and your mouse will end up in a different position compared to its starting position after you made a couple of moves with your cursor starting and ending in the same position(you can easily confirm it by making like 30 halfcircles with your mouse).
It still would have drift. The drift has nothing to do with lifting the mouse up. In fact, it doesn't even have anything to do with the sensor itself directly. The way a mouse computes movement uses deltas whereas a tablet doesn't ever compute movement it merely triangulates the location of your pen.
Topic Starter
Dephix
Razer did make some dual sensor mouse though, so why not? would be nice if there is a button to switch back and forth between "relative" and "absolute" modes.
ZenithPhantasm
The Razer mice use philips twin eye sensors which is not absolute positioning. Iirc those sensors are actually prone to Z axis issues.
chainpullz
You quite literally need a tablet to achieve absolute positioning. It might as well be the minimalist sensor setup to achieve accurate triangulation data. Your absolute positioning will never extend outside of the area of your "tablet" device. With that said, if you were to use a mouse with a "tablet" device you could achieve absolute positioning but then you are basically just use a giant mouse shaped pen and you've defeated the entire purpose.

If the question is, will I ever be able to use a mouse shaped pen with a tablet? Then the answer is most certainly. But you'll never be able to use just a mouse for absolute positioning. The best you can hope for is that huge leaps are made when it comes to reducing the error on each sensor calculation such that drift becomes negligable. Even then, it will still exist since sensors will never be perfect.
ZenithPhantasm

chainpullz wrote:

You quite literally need a tablet to achieve absolute positioning. It might as well be the minimalist sensor setup to achieve accurate triangulation data. Your absolute positioning will never extend outside of the area of your "tablet" device. With that said, if you were to use a mouse with a "tablet" device you could achieve absolute positioning but then you are basically just use a giant mouse shaped pen and you've defeated the entire purpose.

If the question is, will I ever be able to use a mouse shaped pen with a tablet? Then the answer is most certainly. But you'll never be able to use just a mouse for absolute positioning. The best you can hope for is that huge leaps are made when it comes to reducing the error on each sensor calculation such that drift becomes negligable. Even then, it will still exist since sensors will never be perfect.
It will never happen because in order for a good sensor to track perfectly you need the ideal surface. Unfortunately any surface will wear down due to oils from the human hand. It is impossible because there are too many factors that could affect any sensor.
The Gambler
Or you can cannibalize a Wacom pen and stuff it inside a mouse shell if you so desire...
Deterioration

The Gambler wrote:

Or you can cannibalize a Wacom pen and stuff it inside a mouse shell if you so desire...
Won't work for mouse only since your mouse can't actually be plugged in
ZenithPhantasm

Underscore_ wrote:

The Gambler wrote:

Or you can cannibalize a Wacom pen and stuff it inside a mouse shell if you so desire...
Won't work for mouse only since your mouse can't actually be plugged in
If you have a mouse with a separate mouse button pcb then maybe it would still work.
also nice signature
The Gambler

Underscore_ wrote:

The Gambler wrote:

Or you can cannibalize a Wacom pen and stuff it inside a mouse shell if you so desire...
Won't work for mouse only since your mouse can't actually be plugged in
Ironically, I kept the PCB inside the mouse as it feels too weird being unable to click something.
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