This beatmap was submitted using in-game submission on Thursday, June 10, 2010 at 2:44:13 PM

Artist: Yasuaki Fujita
Title: Hard Man
Source: Mega Man 3
Tags: mega man 8-bit
BPM: 143.15
Filesize: 1477kb
Play Time: 01:34
Difficulties Available:

1. Extra Hard Man (5 stars, 442 notes)
2. Kinda Hard Man (3.36 stars, 113 notes)
3. Not Very Hard Man (1.07 stars, 59 notes)
4. Pretty Hard Man (4.91 stars, 319 notes)

Download: Yasuaki Fujita - Hard Man
Information: Scores/Beatmap Listing
---------------
Please refer to the first post in the thread for some information for modders.

I have a few words about the last difficulty before anyone mods it. Skill in osu is comprised of two parts: mechanics (the ability to actually move your cursor and hit the circles), and reading (the ability to understand the information that the circles represent.) This difficulty focuses on developing the latter. It is very difficulty to sightread, however, if you slow it down and look at the placement of the circles, you'll notice that it's actually not tremendously difficult on the mechanics side. There are no death streams or huge jumps anywhere to be found. It's straightforward and simple.

One reason it's difficult to read is I took places that are identical musically, and used different rhythms each time they happened in the song. They still line up with the music exactly; I used different "parts" you could say, from the music in the "foreground" and the music in the "background" to make up the circle placements each time. A lot of times I find myself falling victim to what I call "musician's intuition." I expect the circles to be at a certain time because of the way the song is flowing, but the circles end up not being there. I think this map will help train you to avoid that pitfall. Recognizing patterns is a good thing, until you think you recognize a pattern and oh crap! it's actually different. If you're modding this and find yourself questioning whether the circles match the music, make sure to listen to the beats going on behind the main melody; I make heavy use of these in the highest difficulty.

On the issue of aesthetics, you'll notice a lot of straight lines and very few curves in the upper difficulties. I'm trying to emulate the jagged, pixelated images you get when you play an NES game by not using smooth curves and such.

More notes may be added later.

Here are the notes added later: I believe the negative response to this difficulty stems from the fact that players simply are not used to seeing these kinds of patterns, so they don't know how to hit them. Think of this as an analogy: take a person who has only practiced classical music, and set a jazz score in front of him. You can bet that he's going to stumble over the radically different composition. Does this make the jazz score bad? No, it does not. Players are in the same position. This kind of mapping is very uncommon. Mappers do in fact use patterns similar to these on occasion, but they never base a map almost entirely on clusters. Every time I see a similar cluster in a map, I almost always screw it up and fail on the spot. Do I fail because the cluster is "bad"? No, I fail because I'm not used to seeing them, and because I read the thing incorrectly. The patterns are mechanically sound. They make sense, just not in a way that most players are used to. I think that this should be more common in high-level maps, because the difficulty of most maps right now is based on one of three things; streams, jumps, or outright speed. None of them challenge you to actually "read" the circles, the only difficulty lies in how fast your hands can move.

[Overall]
BPM and Offset and fine.
I read your first post.

[Not Very Hard Man]
Fine.

[Kinda Hard Man]
Fine.

[Pretty Hard Man]
00:09:095 - 00:10:038 - Oh gawd, cluster fuck.
00:14:125 - 00:14:859 - More cluster fuck! I can't read where anything is!
I'm going to stop here, because it's going against what you said in your post. I realize what you mean, but this goes against what a ranked map would be.

[Extra Hard Man] <-- lol innuendo
Oh gawd, tiny hit objects ftl.
So much more cluster fuck. I can't even mod it, since it also goes against your post.

I can't star this.

Not Very Hard Man
Don't use 1/4 on Easy diffs.
00:04:904 (2) - Not symmetrical to (1). Consider horizontally flipping (1) to make it perfect.
01:09:452 (2) - ^

Kinda Hard Man
Keep to Red and White ticks mainly, only use blue for difficulty. Hence 1/2. If you use this but still find it hard to keep on-beat, your timing may be wrong.
00:01:551 (3) - Move 1 tick forward, fix spacing.
00:03:123 (3) - ^
00:11:191 (2) - Extend by 1 tick, fix spacing after.
00:19:574 (3) - Extend by 1 tick.
00:22:927 (3) - ^
00:28:376 (2) - ^
00:30:052 (4) - ^
00:48:390 (3) - Extend by a tick fix spacing
Blah only half way through this diff. Take the advice at the top and fix the rest.

And I read the first post, but I agree wtih Tatsuo in that the other 2 diffs probably aren't rankable.

General;
Some fade out on the end of that mp3 wouldn't hurt.

Not Very Hard Man;
I agree with not using 1/4 in this.

Kinda Hard Man;
Not a fan of 1/4s in normals either.

Pretty Hard Man;
00:06:476 (4) - The end of this slider sounds really out of place; I suggest a single hircircle here.
00:07:838 (3,6) - That overlap is pretty stupid.
00:09:305 (2,3,4,5) - Hard to read.
00:13:077 (4) - I don't know what purpose this serves, as it plays much nicer with just a hircircle at 00:13:182.
00:14:125 (1,2,3,4,5) - This combo is a little ugly and hard to play. And all future iterations.
00:26:280 (1,2,3,4,5) - I'm not sure what this is mapped to to be honest.
00:53:419 (5) - Same as before.
01:00:021 (4) - As before.
Really the distance snap makes this really hard to read and play.

Extra Hard Man;
Ugh.

I can't star this in its current state.

For the comments about 1/4 in the easy diff: look at where they are. Every single use of a 1/4 note is the end of a slider. It requires absolutely no extra skill on the part of the player to hit these notes. The reason they are 1/4 notes is because that's what matches the music. If there were more notes right after the 1/4, you might have a point, but there aren't. There are huge gaps between that note and the next one. Every single note or slider begins on a downbeat.

As for the 1/4 in normal, personally I find it easier to follow the notes if they're actually following the music, rather than forcing them all onto down/upbeats to make it "easier", when in fact it just makes it less intuitive.

DC had some useful suggestions.

DiamondCrash wrote:

General;
Some fade out on the end of that mp3 wouldn't hurt. - I agree, but I don't know how to do it myself so I'm going to find someone who does.

Pretty Hard Man;
00:06:476 (4) - The end of this slider sounds really out of place; I suggest a single hircircle here. - I agree, I could never get this slider to sound right.
00:07:838 (3,6) - That overlap is pretty stupid. - I see things like this all the time. If it's going to be used, I might as well get used to seeing it and be able to play it correctly. Also, it's not mechanically difficult in the sense that you'll miss it repeatedly. Once you know it's there, you'll get it every time. It increases the sightreading difficulty, yes, but not the replay difficulty.
00:09:305 (2,3,4,5) - Hard to read. - Yes, it is.
00:13:077 (4) - I don't know what purpose this serves, as it plays much nicer with just a hircircle at 00:13:182. - I don't see how; this matches the music perfectly already.
00:14:125 (1,2,3,4,5) - This combo is a little ugly and hard to play. And all future iterations. - It's simulating a block. All the straight lines are reminiscent of the stage itself.
00:26:280 (1,2,3,4,5) - I'm not sure what this is mapped to to be honest. - Listen to the background beat.
00:53:419 (5) - Same as before. - Made it a circle instead.
01:00:021 (4) - As before.
Really the distance snap makes this really hard to read and play.

I can understand the objections to extra hard, because players simply are not used to reading that kind of mapping. But pretty hard has nothing new.

No comment for those 1/4 sliders in first two diffs.

Kinda Hard Man
00:12:029 (3) - spacing (AIMod didn't detect this)

Pretty Hard Man & Extra Hard Man
First of all, did you ever play these diffs and passed them D:?....

idk How to explain it well in English lol, but IMO, those hidden notes are really weird.

How about adding OD to make them more clearly?


and
You should be a nice taiko mapper! yea.



Hope It won't happen on your next map...

I don't get how people are having issues with Pretty Hard Man; I can SS this without any problem. There aren't even any real tricks in it besides those two overlaps near the beginning.

I get around 80-85% accuracy on extra hard man; it's designed for players above my level. I've only been playing a month and a half. It's also designed using patterns that are incredibly rare in maps; you will not be able to sightread this. Were you able to sightread 5.00 star maps when you first started? No, because you were not used to seeing those kinds of patterns yet. Gradually over time, you became able to read them. This is the same. You have not seen these kinds of patterns before, and you expect to be able to read them immediately just because you can read other patterns that you have seen countless times already? Step away from the "I can't read it so it must be horrible!" mentality for a few minutes. Think about the mechanics objectively. Are there spacing errors? Is the timing off? Would a circle be better than a slider in this spot? These are the things I want to know about.

Overall

Slider tick rate = 2

I also was kind of hoping there was tricky patterns in a map I could beat. Oh well. I guess I'm never learning to sighread anything.

Not Very Hard Man

00:19:155 (2,1,2) - Do these have to be facing the same way? It looks odd. Maybe flip the middle note horizontally.

01:31:247 (1,2) - Turn off grid snap and center the ends on the vertical line. Note 2 will have to be nudge a little to the right without distance snap.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12568

Kinda Hard Man

00:38:435 (2) - Adjust the placement with distance snap on to fix the small spacing flaw.

00:40:950 (1) - ^

00:48:390 (3) - Move this up a unit?

00:50:066 (3) - ^

Pretty Hard Man

OD - 1 I might be able to beat it then. It plays a lot better with the extra time to react and identify the notes. Yes it is still tricky to hit the 1/4th notes. This is highly recommended.

Edit: Once doing so, I found that many of the flow and readability issue go with it.

00:08:152 (4) - New combo?

00:09:829 (4,5,6,7) - Although it works. I feel it would be much easier to hit if it was placed above note 3. You know to sort of recreate the triangular pattern that you began it with. I feel this better fits the rhythm as a whole. Adjust the notes around it if you feel it's too high in the grid.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12569

00:14:544 (3,4,5) - How about stacking 3 and 4 and then moving 5 on 2?

00:25:861 (8,9) - Hard to see. Might be fine.

00:26:699 (3,4) - Turn 3 into a slider and delete 4?

00:40:950 (1) - How about start this combo and all the notes after it to the right of the previous note instead on top of it?

00:45:037 (4,5,6) - Although this is meant to trip people up so they will remember it. I don't feel it flows very well moving up and then over. I'm not too worried about it though.

01:27:894 (1,2,3) - How about you make these notes go down and then over? It wont feel as awkward.

01:30:304 (10,11) - How about just making 10 part of note 11?

01:33:867 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - This is most likely unrankable. 3 is barely visible and all the approach circles make it hard to figure out the pattern. Maybe if you shift notes 4,5 and 6 to the right of note 3. i'm not sure about this though. no matter what you do the rhythm doesn't sound like it should be completely straight.

Suggestion: Last six notes be kiai time?


I'll get to Extra hard tomorrow. Right now I'm freezing.



Edit: Okay. Here's my shot at your infamous Extra Hard difficulty.


Extra Hard man

General
People wont complain as much if you bring the OD down a couple pegs so that the notes aren't ridiculously hard to hit. Hard to read is bad enough, but hard and awkward to hit too. I think that's asking too much.
OD - 1 is a good alteration. It's not as ridiculous as it was before.


Drain at least - 1. Why the hell is it so high?

00:04:799 (5) - I think it is more intuitive that this be placed in the gap in the blue combo. This might make people cry more fowl, but I think the rhythm feels like it should be going back instead of up. May I also suggest that you make it a new combo? It's hard enough to read already and with the limited window to hit it, you should at least give some lead off. As far as this combo goes, I've seen patterns in other ranked maps like it so it could pass without the combo change.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12639 (I really reccommend you doing this instead. )



00:08:362 (6) - I would not suggest you stacking this here. I don't think it flows very well having to reverse back.
Actually I'm not sure you should stack anything on that slider. Maybe you should take 00:08:152 (5) - and put it to the right of note 4 and let 5,6,7 be a straight line.

How about placing it here instead?

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12636

Alternate solution

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12641

I still think it requires some memorization to proof read. It's just more intuitive flow wise to play. Remember flow should always trump mechanics.


00:10:667 (8,1) - Are you sure you want to stack these? It doesn't go with the rest of the patterns which are spread out. I feel that you can spread this stack out by shifting the position of these notes 00:07:419 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - right until there's enough space. I think it will conform to the distance snap.

Another fix is stacking Note 8 on the end of 00:10:248 (7) - , but that also doesn't fit right with the rest of your patterns. It's up to you.

00:16:325 - Add a note? Stack it on the end of 00:15:802 (11) -

00:16:535 (12) - Remove this. I don't quite like how you're trying to map two different rhythms. It sounds and feels off. I think the fast dun dun dunnana should be the only beat you should be following in this case. I think doing this two suggestions and repositioning the notes, this section will bemuch more identifiable.

00:18:212 (5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - I found it extremely hard to find the actual beat while playing it. I think that's because you're mapping to two different rhythms as I stated above. How can you expect someone to ever figure how to play your map right when you mix and match rhythms.

The Fix

00:18:316 (6) - needs to be a repeat slider. The note setup sounded different than the beat and the gap between 6 and 7 was the reason why. There is a dinstinct note between note 6 and 7 if you listen closely. There needs to be a note there. You'll have to figure out how to make it work.

00:18:736 (8) - New combo- This is not a suggestion. It's the start of a new beat. IMO Note 6 should be a new combo, but it can pass without one.

00:19:574 (3,4) - Doesn't flow well in my opinion. You might want to find a better place for note 4.

00:19:888 (4,5,6) - Unintuitive. You are merging two rhythms into one pattern. That is generally not a good idea, because the players expect the same rhythm throughout a pattern. This especially applies to a pattern within the same combo. Note 5 needs to be a new combo and notes 5 and 6 and inevitably note 7 should be repositioned to give players some sort of indication that the rhythm changes.

It's a psychological thing. When I listen to 4,5,6 my mind doesn't think triplet. I think that note 4 is an empty sound when it isn't and the sounds of notes 5,6,7 as the triplet sound. Note 4's sound just isn't loud enough to be presented as a triplet.

The Fix

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12646

00:21:670 (6) - Unrankable. Slider end cannot be covered like that.

00:21:984 (7) - New Combo?

00:22:508 (1) - This should be part of the previous combo.

00:22:298 (10,11,1) - I don't think it's wise to move inward with note 11. Maybe it will play better if you positioned it where 00:22:717 (2) - currently is, then just reposition the other notes over to retain the patterns after it. I think it is possible to reposition 00:21:565 (5,6) - in such a way that you can keep the pyramid pattern centered like you had it while making this adjustment or there are other ways.

00:23:346 (4,5) - (or (3,4) as it should be.) Reapply distance snap to these notes and the previous note in the combo. I think there is a small spacing discrepancy.

00:25:023 (5) - New combo. The rhythm changes and so should the combo. Also does this pattern have to start by going back? I think it should really start with note 5 to the left of note 4

00:25:023 (5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - Cascade pattern downward? It might improve flow and people might be more happy with this design instead. Eh it's a suggestion.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12654


00:26:699 (5,6,7) - Again does it have to start by going backward? It's awkward to make that kind of movement. Forward is better.

00:27:538 (1,2) - I don't like the finishes. I don't think they fit. You should remove them. IMO I think claps could work better, but not in the same pattern that you had the finishes. Add whistles whereever you removed a finish. Actually the whistle back tones should still be present even on the notes you add a separate hitsound too.
00:28:271 (6,7,8) - ^

00:29:214 (1,2) - ^

00:29:948 (6,7,8) - ^

00:28:690 (8,9,10,11,12) - I have several things to say about this. The sound behind 8 is practically unhearable at full speed. I think you could get away with removing it. I don't think anyone would complain and you would have more space to work with 9,10,11,12 or you can turn it into a slider and delete note 9. Next is I think that 8 should be a new combo. Although that's just a matter of preference.

00:29:214 (1,2) - Manually move 2 until it the same distance from note 12 of the previous combo as 1.

00:29:843 (5) - How about you position this where 00:29:424 (2) - is? I think it will play 10 times better and follows the song's rhythm a lot better. It will benefit my next suggestion.

00:30:157 (7) - Way too hard to see this circle. I think it should be moved outside the clump.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12660

00:34:977 (5) - New combo. (Highly suggested)

00:34:977 (5,6,7,8) - Note: I'm not sure they will allow you to have a 3/4 stack and 1/2th stack in the same combo. However I like how you set the stacks up.

00:35:920 (9) - New Combo. (Highly suggested)

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12661

00:57:925 (2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - Plays awkward to me. It doesn't seem to flow well going up into a tight rectangle. Maybe the pattern will work better if you set the latter half of combo downward instead of upward. That way you would be going down into a tight rectangle instead of up into one. Adjust 00:59:392 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - these afterward. Maybe it would work. Maybe not.

01:02:221 (8) - New combo.

01:03:164 (2,3,4,5,6) - Feels randomly placed and doesn't accurately recreate the rhythm to notes. I suggest creating an anti jump between 1 and 2 and replacing the notes sort of like this. 01:04:422 (1) - Might have to readjust distance snap for this note afterward.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12666


01:05:470 (6) - Feels out of place. This is the only note that isn't following the high pitched rhythm here. you can't expect people to pick this up. Either map the entire secondary rhythm in this section or don't include it at all.

01:05:784 (8,9,10) - Might flow better if you started these notes to the left of note 7.

01:09:032 (5,6,7,8) - I don't think the rhythm represents a square. The pattern doesn't work. It feels more like a zigzig pattern to me.

01:11:862 (4) - New combo.

01:12:700 (11,1) - Might flow better if the combo started above 11 or beside it.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12667 (Note I only moved note 1. It is no longer proportional to note 2.)

01:13:538 (5,6,7) - One of the rare moments when you might want to use a reverse slider.

01:14:481 (1,2) - Remove finish. Remember to add whistles to all notes.

01:15:215 (6,7,8) - ^

01:16:367 (6,7) - ^

01:16:891 (1,2,3) - ^

01:16:367 (6) - Maybe it should be placed here instead.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12669

01:16:891 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - If you're going to have this kind of pattern, I highly reccomend that the notes end in a more flowing way since the player is going to leap to hit note 3. If the notes after it aren't placed in a consistant arc, they are likely to experience a frustrating combo break.. What I'm trying to hint at is Flow > awkward

01:25:798 (6) - New combo? Just a suggestion.

01:28:103 (2) - Put this here instead. http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/12672

It would very awkward to make such an abrupt turn after a stream like that.




The Prognosis

The easier difficulties are in fairly good shape. It is the harder difficulties that need a little work. Well they need a lot of work actually. Pretty Hard only have a few spots where I think people will question the rankability, but only a few spots. Otherwise it plays fine and it's fairly easy to read.

Extra hard needs a lot of work IMO. It has a lot of sections that don't flow well. I made suggestions the best I could. If you manage to fix the flow issues, then I think it could be rankable. It can be done while still being very hard to proof read and play for that matter. The notes go by so fast, I found it very hard to recognize anything with so little time to react. The drain doesn't help either.

This modding thread has been migrated to the new "modding discussions" system. Please make sure to re-post any existing (and unresolved) efforts to the new system as required.