21:00 Hareimu: hey there
21:00 Hareimu: wanna irc mod? :>
21:01 Hareimu: feels way better than modding via forum post
21:01 Hareimu: and I can just post the chat log on the thread to get kudo instead
21:01 DragonSlayer96: what song
21:02 *Hareimu is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/633715 Koji Kondo - Bolero of Fire [Cup]]
21:02 DragonSlayer96: and i dont mind irc mods
21:02 Hareimu: like, suggesting you stuff through here
21:02 DragonSlayer96: i have done them before
21:02 *DragonSlayer96 is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/633715 Koji Kondo - Bolero of Fire [Cup]]
21:03 DragonSlayer96: ready when you are
21:03 Hareimu: okie
21:03 Hareimu: just tested through the cup diff
21:03 Hareimu: not a single dash was used, good start
21:04 DragonSlayer96: i know how to map so the basic things like dashes/hypers wont be on them
21:04 Hareimu: ok
21:04 DragonSlayer96: always good to double check though
21:04 Hareimu: let's begin
21:04 Hareimu: first of all, I don't think using slider tickrate 2 for cup/salad fits the song
21:04 DragonSlayer96: these maps i mapped when i was really active modding and was trying to be BN
21:05 Hareimu: you see, tickrate is a property of the song, not of the map
21:05 Hareimu: and the ticks are over no sounds
21:05 Hareimu: since the sliders go over the 1/3 sounds
21:05 Hareimu: and the tick is in a 1/2 tick where there is no sound.
21:05 Hareimu: a.k.a. use str1 for both cup and salad?
21:06 DragonSlayer96: i will be back in a second. need to change keybindings before i throw this laptop
21:06 Hareimu: okie dokie
21:07 Hareimu: tell me when you're ready :>
21:07 DragonSlayer96: i hate how the F keys dont do what i want them to do
21:08 DragonSlayer96: and ready
21:08 Hareimu: ok
21:08 Hareimu: so, about the tickrate suggestion
21:08 DragonSlayer96: the TR mightve changed when i updated the timing
21:08 Hareimu: oh, I see
21:08 DragonSlayer96: normally i dont have TR of 2 for things lower than platter QwQ
21:08 Hareimu: xD
21:08 Hareimu: whelp, good to know I catched something odd
21:09 Hareimu: are they fixed now?
21:09 DragonSlayer96: yep
21:09 DragonSlayer96: meter is 6/4 though. kuro basically told me if it wasnt that, it wont ever be ranked
21:10 Hareimu: yea, he was right
21:10 Hareimu: wrong timing can lead to DQs
21:10 Hareimu: whelp, next suggestion
21:10 Hareimu: 00:25:051 (1,2,1) - this whole movement can be really, really hard for those who have just started playing ctb
21:10 DragonSlayer96: i know that
21:11 Hareimu: even if you can easily play it
21:11 Hareimu: beginners may not
21:11 DragonSlayer96: oh, saying i know that to comment before your link, lol
21:11 Hareimu: so I suggest moving 00:25:801 (2) - to x:208
21:12 DragonSlayer96: moved. dont see that big of a change on it
21:12 Hareimu: before we move on, I wanna talk to you about the NC usage on the map
21:13 Hareimu: you see, NCs should normally be over downbeats like 00:03:051 - this one
21:13 DragonSlayer96: for testplay, seemed too far so i moved it to 256
21:13 Hareimu: new comboes define different sections of the song from one another
21:13 Hareimu: and the "clearing plate up to catch next stuff" animation should follow suit
21:14 Hareimu: if the plate clears up over a major downbeat, it would look weird
21:14 DragonSlayer96: 00:03:050 (5) - is the end of the string of notes, that is why it is clearing that. if i have it clearing the note before, it literally confuses me because it does not follow the song
21:15 Hareimu: the most prominent sound is at (5) though
21:15 Hareimu: listen closely
21:16 Hareimu: even though (1) has more than one sound (3 consecutive 1/2 sounds), it's not more prominent than the strong drum slam audible at (5)
21:16 Hareimu: strong sounds are normally what define new sections
21:17 Hareimu: if you still don't believe me, look at the time signature of the whole song. it's ONE, two, three, four, five, six, ONE, two, three, four, five, six and so on and so forth
21:17 DragonSlayer96: one of the ways that i map is that strong notes trigger things, not end things. so strong notes trigger dashes and platter clears
21:17 Hareimu: I can understand that
21:18 Hareimu: but if you look at most ranked maps, the dashes are directed to the strong sound and not to the sound next to it.
21:18 Hareimu: in the same way, new comboes are over the strong sounds, and not to the sounds after them.
21:19 Hareimu: it has been done in this way since forever now, and for good reason.
21:19 DragonSlayer96: i know. to me, dashing from a weak note to a strong note is not a smart idea. there is nothing about the weak note that makes me want to dash and that is the biggest reason why i do mod differently
21:20 DragonSlayer96: but i know ctb was taken from std mapping
21:20 Hareimu: I used to think the same way you do right now.
21:21 Hareimu: if you don't believe me, look at my world's end, girl's rondo (asterisk remix) rendition that is now graveyarded
21:21 DragonSlayer96: its probably a good map
21:21 Hareimu: after 8 downbeats, I start to do the same thing you do right now
21:21 Hareimu: make dashes start from strong sounds and not go to the strong sounds
21:22 Hareimu: and I actually did it not because I believed that's the correct way of doing it, but because I wanted to copy spectator's akatsuki no tsuki patterns to see if I could use them myself too
21:22 Hareimu: but after testing and testing and testing it over and over again, I started to feel it played weirdly.
21:23 Hareimu: so yea, going to the point
21:24 Hareimu: me myself and a lot of other modders will very probably tell you the same thing I'm telling you right now
21:24 DragonSlayer96: if spec does map like that, no wonder i like his style. and yea, quite a few think i do it backwards. i have had this told to me along with "make your maps harder, they should give pp"
21:25 Hareimu: woahwoahwoah
21:25 Hareimu: I didn't say anything about pp though
21:25 Hareimu: that's another completely different topic
21:25 DragonSlayer96: i refused basically a whole mod on the platter because the mod was making the map into a pp map, lol
21:25 Hareimu: and spec just mapped some sections of his map like that because he was following the singer's voice and he wanted to spruce up his map using it effectively
21:26 Hareimu: not because it was the correct way of doing so
21:26 Hareimu: (also look at razor's gd on your mapset, he uses NCs over the downbeats too)
21:29 DragonSlayer96: that might be to keep the map consistant, idk
21:29 Hareimu: ask him, then
21:30 Hareimu: well back to the mod
21:30 DragonSlayer96: will do when i see him
21:30 Hareimu: basically if you NC and add dashes like that, all other modders will most likely also state the same thing I'm stating now
21:31 Hareimu: not to mention it can lead to DQs as well
21:31 Hareimu: the general ranking criteria says the same thing
21:32 DragonSlayer96: as far as i know, NC cant lead to DQ unless its breaking the RC (like 8 fruit stacking)
21:32 Hareimu: it can if it's misleading
21:32 DragonSlayer96: how can NC be misleading. never heard that one
21:33 Hareimu: https://puu.sh/xRPrO/a4e1196bed.png boop
21:33 Hareimu: that's directed for std and general mapping anyway, that's why the diffnaming is easy, insane, hard, normal, etc there
21:34 Hareimu: but it applied and still applies in the same way for ctb mapping too
21:35 DragonSlayer96: so basically i have to scrap how i like mapping to get stuff ranked :/
21:35 Hareimu: eh
21:35 DragonSlayer96: and make it not make sense
21:35 Hareimu: not really
21:35 Hareimu: it's just changing the new comboing and rearranging the dashes
21:35 DragonSlayer96: i thought downbeats where the red lines though
21:35 Hareimu: your mapping style would look the same
21:36 Hareimu: downbeats are the big white ticks.
21:36 Hareimu: they're big for a reason, you know :P
21:36 DragonSlayer96: i hate forgetting all this qwq
21:36 DragonSlayer96: then why does a new timing point make a downbeat?
21:37 Hareimu: because, normally, a timing point defines a new, different rhythmical section from the song
21:37 Hareimu: (and also this old editor doesn't work in another way)
21:37 Hareimu: ((and it's utter bullshit))
21:37 Hareimu: but yeah
21:38 Hareimu: say, if a song was a solid 128bpm and then the bpm changes to 200bpm, the new timing point makes a new downbeat with 200bpm
21:38 Hareimu: if you add a timing point over a red tick, it defines a new downbeat because it's told to behave like so
21:38 DragonSlayer96: that makes sense then
21:39 Hareimu: if you don't want to have a new downbeat when using a new timing point, use an inherited timing point then
21:39 DragonSlayer96: so downbeats start or end combos?
21:40 Hareimu: downbeats don't start nor end comboes
21:40 DragonSlayer96: from what you are saying, it is start
21:40 Hareimu: New comboes do
21:40 Hareimu: new comboes should be added over downbeats
21:41 DragonSlayer96: ok, i was about to get really upset then if that wasnt the case because i think every kai time i map i start on a downbeat
21:41 Hareimu: there are common exceptions, such as adding a NC over a red tick to not clutter the catcher's plate with more than 16 fruits at the same time
21:41 Hareimu: but that applies over higher difficulties, normally
21:43 Hareimu: and yes, kiai times should also start on downbeats
21:43 DragonSlayer96: i think i know what is confusing me so much on this map. for 4/4, every 4 white ticks = a downbeat, correct?
21:43 Hareimu: yes
21:43 Hareimu: for 6/4, however, every 6 white ticks = a downbeat
21:43 DragonSlayer96: so a 6/4, every 6 = a downbeat?
21:43 Hareimu: yes.
21:43 Hareimu: for x/4, every x white ticks = a downbeat
21:44 Hareimu: that's how music theory works
21:45 DragonSlayer96: if i wouldve known that when i was told to change, i wouldve done it, lol. i knew for 3/3, every 3rd one was a downbeat. i kinda forgot that the top was how many notes were in a measure
21:45 DragonSlayer96: so that was totally my fault
21:46 Hareimu: well, don't dwell on whatever it was your fault or not
21:46 Hareimu: at least now you know about it better
21:46 Hareimu: that's what matters
21:48 DragonSlayer96: okie. now it makes more sense to change the NC around a bit, but then salad and platter need an overhaul ;-;
21:48 Hareimu: wait a minute
21:48 Hareimu: salad doesn't really need that much of one
21:48 Hareimu: what it does need, though, is to make clear whether some distances between fruits are walks or dashes.
21:49 DragonSlayer96: i do tend to dash more on the end of combos, that is why i said that
21:50 Hareimu: it actually plays well
21:51 Hareimu: but platter needs one.
21:51 Hareimu: hyperdashes should be directed into strong sounds, not to the sounds next to them
21:51 Hareimu: ...and yaddayadda I think you get it already
21:53 DragonSlayer96: to me it plays better that way
21:53 DragonSlayer96: this one has a mix of the two though
21:54 Hareimu: not to mention that 1/3 hyperdashes on bpms equal or higher than 120 on a platter are unrankable
21:54 Hareimu: oh wait nvm it was 160bpm
21:54 Hareimu: my bad
21:55 DragonSlayer96: i was about to get really upset. i know i have mapped lower than 120 and its basically fullscreen jumps to get hypers for 1/2
21:56 Hareimu: well anyway
21:57 DragonSlayer96: 00:15:883 (3,4) - that is one pattern where it is dash to the strong note
21:57 DragonSlayer96: 00:17:883 (8,1) -
21:57 DragonSlayer96: another
21:57 Hareimu: it's a pretty antiflowing movement though
21:57 Hareimu: 00:15:717 (2) - I'd move this to x:448
21:58 Hareimu: antiflow means that the movement the player has to makes defies the natural flow it was once following before making such a different movement
21:58 DragonSlayer96: ok, no problem there
21:59 Hareimu: say, if 2 and 3 all go to the left into 4 and 4 is shaped as a curve that slowly curves from left to right, it wouldn't be antiflow.
21:59 DragonSlayer96: i know
21:59 DragonSlayer96: you keep on going and follow though
22:00 DragonSlayer96: anti-flow was one of those things where it was ok here and there on platters when this one was being created
22:00 DragonSlayer96: just need to take them out for better play now, which kinda sucks
22:01 Hareimu: just think about it as if you were the new platter player
22:01 Hareimu: you wouldn't like hard movements
22:01 Hareimu: because the platter shouldn't be THAT much harder than salad
22:01 Hareimu: and it shouldn't play as a rain
22:01 DragonSlayer96: new to platters i was playing things like Sey
22:02 Hareimu: sey's maps weren't particularly hard afaik?
22:02 DragonSlayer96: and i dont buff my platters up to rain difficulties, hence why i try to keep the hyper count under 10
22:02 Hareimu: in a normal 4/4 song, hyperdashes should appear every measure
22:02 Hareimu: like, every 4 beats
22:03 Hareimu: I emphasize, should, not have to.
22:03 DragonSlayer96: that is too much imo for a platter since platter introduces hypers
22:04 Hareimu: every 2 measures then?
22:05 DragonSlayer96: to me, it has to fit the song. doesnt matter the difficulty
22:05 DragonSlayer96: if there is a mellow part of a heavy metal song, i dont expect hypers in that space
22:05 Hareimu: that's correct
22:05 Hareimu: but in the heavy parts of the song, you shouldn't go all out with hypers either
22:05 Hareimu: it's still a platter diff
22:06 DragonSlayer96: exactly. for me, hypers should be the most intense parts of it
22:06 Hareimu: and that is fine
22:06 DragonSlayer96: and should use to emphasis the song
22:07 Hareimu: well back to the mod we're running in circles rn
22:07 Hareimu: xD
22:07 Hareimu: quick question
22:07 DragonSlayer96: okie
22:07 Hareimu: why is the SV so high on all diffs?
22:08 DragonSlayer96: that was because i had the bpm doubled, so in order to keep the mods that people did on the map, i cut the bpm by half and doubled SV to keep the map the same so the other modders work was not lost
22:08 DragonSlayer96: hirari is like that, but in reverse
22:09 Hareimu: oh, I see
22:09 Hareimu: still, such high bpms don't really fit the song
22:09 Hareimu: it's not that intense
22:09 Hareimu: svs*
22:09 DragonSlayer96: i had the bpm at 240 when i first timed it though x.x took about 7 or so mods before someone told me to cut it in half
22:10 DragonSlayer96: i just didnt wanna say "fuck you" to those seven modders
22:10 Hareimu: uh, lemme get something straight here
22:10 Hareimu: modders mod what they are offered at the time they were offered such thing
22:11 Hareimu: if you at a certain point make a drastic change that takes all those modders' suggestions to waste, it doesn't really matter as long as the map's general improved quality doesn't go to waste too
22:12 Hareimu: you're supposed to learn stuff from mods so that you don't make the same mistakes that lead to the modders' suggestions in the first place
22:13 DragonSlayer96: let me see something real quick on the thread
22:17 Hareimu: so? :o
22:18 DragonSlayer96: no one made a comment about it like that until now
22:18 DragonSlayer96: about the SV being too high
22:18 Hareimu: boberofdarkness did though
22:19 Hareimu: https://puu.sh/xRR48/c8603ca1a6.png
22:20 DragonSlayer96: oh, first mod, lol. that was when the song still had 240 bpm
22:23 DragonSlayer96: well, i can cut the sv in half and - hopefully - keep the start/end of sliders the same
22:23 Hareimu: if you could do that, it'd play so much better
22:23 Hareimu: and it'd really fit the song too
22:23 Hareimu: I don't feel it's as energic as to have such high speed sliders
22:24 DragonSlayer96: after i do it and upload it, can you take another look to make sure i did not overlook things? that is something i have a hard time doing when i monkey with SV/timing
22:24 Hareimu: alright then, will do
22:25 Hareimu: should I post this chatlog as it is right now?
22:25 DragonSlayer96: is there a way to save the ends where they are when i do change SV?
22:25 Hareimu: no, there is not
22:25 Hareimu: if you change SVs, the length of the sliders will naturally decrease
22:25 DragonSlayer96: yea, i will update and just say that i am still working on last comment
22:26 Hareimu: say, a 1/2 slider with 1,80x SV cannot travel the same distance as a slider with 2,00x SV.
22:26 Hareimu: it just can't because of the speed it was assigned
22:27 Hareimu: also, if I must add
22:27 Hareimu: if any modder that comes next to me tells you to remap some parts/the whole diffs, do mind their suggestion
22:27 Hareimu: firstly because it could make the diff better with your new knowledge applied
22:27 Hareimu: and secondly because it's 30 seconds long anyway lol
22:28 DragonSlayer96: okie, and i am confused. do i have to change SV for every time i have a new section?
22:28 Hareimu: uh
22:28 Hareimu: not really
22:28 Hareimu: like
22:28 Hareimu: change the slider velocity from the timing tab
22:28 Hareimu: (above the slider tick rate option)
22:29 Hareimu: and then open up the dropdown timing menu at the top of the editor window (not the black one, the one to the right of design and to the left of web)
22:29 DragonSlayer96: i know, but after the first green line, the sliders dont change in length, only the ones before the first green line
22:29 Hareimu: and click on recalculate slider lengths
22:30 Hareimu: when you do, check if all sliderends are snapped to their correct ticks
22:30 DragonSlayer96: oh, didnt do the second thing
22:31 Hareimu: if not, adjust the anchors at the end of the slider so that they're shorter/longer, depending on if the slider is snapped later than expected/earlier than expected
22:35 DragonSlayer96: .-. this is gonna take some time
22:36 DragonSlayer96: basically remap for all my sliders
22:36 DragonSlayer96: glad it is a short map
22:36 Hareimu: see? told ya
22:36 Hareimu: you can use it to practice whenever you feel that this mapset is really, really old and your style isn't the same anymore
22:36 DragonSlayer96: it played fine how it was though
22:37 Hareimu: but it'll play even better with the new slider speed
22:37 Hareimu: say, if a speedcore song had short af sliders
22:37 DragonSlayer96: it will be a boring cup, lol
22:37 Hareimu: would it be fun?
22:39 DragonSlayer96: that is what is on osu so apparantly yes
22:39 Hareimu: well lemme change the example up a bit
22:39 Hareimu: a really energic song with short sliders.
22:39 Hareimu: short, really short and slow 1/1 sliders
22:40 DragonSlayer96: to me, yea
22:40 DragonSlayer96: to others, no
22:40 Hareimu: you should map both for yourself and for others
22:41 Hareimu: maps are meant to be enjoyed by everybody
22:44 Hareimu: I'll post this on the thread now
