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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)

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Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
they're not exactly like AR, I know it. we don't even have "fixed values" but rather the scroll speed thing I talked about earlier.
but first get into the sole thing of ASS which is for 300 set pp to this, ASS 400 pp bonus to that blablah

then about SV changes it'll depend on the chart definitely. if there's a very hard section but SV 0.5 it won't be treated the same way as SV 2. for ther same thing
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

_Gezo_ wrote:

can't even manage to fetch SV and BPM at all? kinda odd, considering they're a bit like AR (not completely the same) so yeah. x_x
I can fetch those, but since they depend on timings within the map I'll have to conclude a reasonable "global" value for the pp calculations from within the difficulty calculations.

We don't know whether misses were made in parts of the map with fast SV or not after all.

That stuff needs additional balancing and implementation, hence it's not there yet. :p


PS: HD and FL boni should be a fair bit lower now. Does it look better?
FLANKs
19 posts
Joined February 2013
FLANKs
I think HD is fine how it is right now. The first update might have been a bit much but this is fine.
TimmyAkmed
152 posts
Joined July 2012
TimmyAkmed
imo the system is still overrating HD alot, just look at the recent DTHR of Sobatsuyu, his performances weights way less than some DTHD that have 0,50 accu below.

HR beats HD only when base OD is 7. Now there is just no point in doing DTHR on maps since it's just way harder and it will reward you way less.
TKS
Former osu!taiko Champion: 2014
1,380 posts
Joined July 2011
TKS
HD is fine. as it is, HR is too underrated. has to buff before nerf HD :)
ikin5050
583 posts
Joined February 2014
ikin5050
Maybe for like 2000-3500 pp players buff how much pp a 93% oni play with a few misses?
I personally cannot properly play onis (proper meaning fc 97%) and right now i always get some misses, look at my top plays :P
I feel that a lot of people in my country for example have a lot of pp from convert insanes, when oni maps are much harder.

http://puu.sh/gj3WM/41b3ba129a.png
http://puu.sh/gj3W2/6fdfc0c8c3.png
Redon
302 posts
Joined November 2013
Redon
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Last edited by Redon , edited 1 time in total.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
While I don't like the current state of lower difficulties for taiko either. It is better to make easier diffs that can be universally accepted, rather than what YOU think provides the proper challenge for a noobie. Easy/Normal serve the purpose of basic rhythms and learning the difference in color. That is it. There isn't really a reason for them to be more complex than they already are. Muzukashii serves as a good platform for applying your rhythm and reading abilities learned from Kantan/Futsuu into full fledged rhythms.

I used to think how you do, so I know where you are coming from. But I do agree that the star rating scale for kantan/futsuu is ridiculous. You can't even add a few simple 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing.
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
Let me correct you a bit MMzz on your last sentence ;P

You can't even *USE 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing (1/2, 3/2, 5/2, 7/2...)

It was a pain to fix Twitch Plays Pokemon because of that :C
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden

MMzz wrote:

While I don't like the current state of lower difficulties for taiko either. It is better to make easier diffs that can be universally accepted, rather than what YOU think provides the proper challenge for a noobie. Easy/Normal serve the purpose of basic rhythms and learning the difference in color. That is it. There isn't really a reason for them to be more complex than they already are. Muzukashii serves as a good platform for applying your rhythm and reading abilities learned from Kantan/Futsuu into full fledged rhythms.

I used to think how you do, so I know where you are coming from. But I do agree that the star rating scale for kantan/futsuu is ridiculous. You can't even add a few simple 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing.
Not even this. Even 1/1s are overrated as heck.

I've been told in my maps (by mods) that I overmapped the Kantans and Futsuus because 1/1s. And I'm like, seriously? They're not even high BPM, gosh...
Redon
302 posts
Joined November 2013
Redon
‎
Last edited by Redon , edited 1 time in total.
eeezzzeee
979 posts
Joined August 2013
eeezzzeee
To be fair, I think its mania that has underrated maps. If you look at all the other game modes, easy almost never has 1/2 notes, and normal will never have 1/4 triples, whereas in mania those are standard. So what I'm trying to say is we should be expecting "brain dead" maps at 1-2 star difficulty but somehow that's not the case for mania.

I'm not saying the taiko star rating is good right now though. No. lol
Redon
302 posts
Joined November 2013
Redon
‎
Last edited by Redon , edited 1 time in total.
verto
307 posts
Joined October 2012
verto
I'm going a bit off here to address another issue.

As we know TAG4 maps now don't yield any pp, with the explanation that they weren't be rankable according to the ranking criteria.

Now, we have converts which kind of acts the same as TAG4 maps to a lesser extend. A lot of people argued in the thread that they shouldn't count toward the pp and now that TAG4 maps were removed from the pool I don't see why would you keep converts in it.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Redon wrote:

I still think star ratings in the lower difficulty range are hilariously overrated. It takes an insultingly simple map to even make it below the 1.5 cutoff for a Kantan.

I made a post about this about a year ago when the new star rating calculation was introduced, but I didn't receive any response at the time. I'm not sure if the Taiko community is fine with dedicating half of every map's diff spread to the mentally handicapped or if it's just that nobody cares about easy Taiko diffs, but if you compare the difficulty of a 1.5 star Taiko map to that of a 1.5 osu!mania map, it shouldn't take too long to realize that something is terribly wrong.
For me, X star Taiko maps are harder than X star 4K osu!mania maps.

Taiko requires considerably more timing precision than mania, OD3 maps require about as much accuracy for a certain accuracy percentage as OD7 in mania (and if you use DT on OD3, the timing precision required goes beyond OD10 in mania; DT doesn't change the timing windows in mania beyond some rounding errors). Also, Taiko punishes misses more than mania.

Also, for me, Taiko maps are harder to read than osu!mania maps (with about 3000 plays, I still mess up randomly at reading colors even in 2 star maps; with 4K mania I never had that issue even when just starting playing).

I do think that 7K and 8K osu!mania lowest difficulties are underrated (learning to use ring fingers takes some time).
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
It's a matter of perspective. For example, when I started taiko, I could pass Muzukashii diffs with some effort. When I started mania, I was getting destroyed by easy diffs (7K).
We shouldn't really compare the two game modes, all they have in common is pressing the right button at the right time (and even that is questionable due to holds).

As for the star ratings, they were never really comparable cross game modes, so yeah, it's just different.
goatlife
59 posts
Joined May 2014
goatlife


k e k
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
Joking aside that actually makes no sense. I'm your daddy has a larger note-length ratio and significantly harder patterns. So from what we are told about pp it should give much more than Holy Orders.

Oh wait. BPM. :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Ok i'm here with a complaint.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/690982
this map is actually insanely difficult, it might as well be the hardest taiko map ever, but its only 5.8* (the standard is fucking 8*) and Flanks #1 (which is fucking insane) only gave him 123 pp. I do not understand this system. Sorry.

Not mad, just saying that I don't think this system weighs some things like length and bpm. All it seemingly weighs is patterns. Hades : The Rise is harder than this map according to SR.

I think it still needs some more tweaking towards bpm and SV in taiko.

I didn't read some of the recent pages, so im probably being overly redundant.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
92% accuracy B, that's why. SV doesn't work at all when it comes to difficulty calcs.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
And if tom didn't change it, converted maps wight much less than taiko diffs.
DarkStoorM
451 posts
Joined October 2009
DarkStoorM
400~ x100 is an insanely HUGE amount along with 80~ misses. 131pp for these stats is actually high, trust me. Now imagine, that people may lose ~1pp for every x100 hit, FLANKs got 384 of them (depends of course).

I have no idea how the map looks like, but since it's a convert I assume it's full of monocolored 1/8s (?). I can only guess, that full combo nomod would give around 400pp, because it's less than 6 stars, but along with the length it may end up giving like 450.
verto
307 posts
Joined October 2012
verto

_verto_ wrote:

I'm going a bit off here to address another issue.

As we know TAG4 maps now don't yield any pp, with the explanation that they weren't be rankable according to the ranking criteria.

Now, we have converts which kind of acts the same as TAG4 maps to a lesser extend. A lot of people argued in the thread that they shouldn't count toward the pp and now that TAG4 maps were removed from the pool I don't see why would you keep converts in it.
What if we just let converts go?
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Was actually suggested many times already, and I guess people didn't really like the idea, though it's probably the most logical one since there are so many things you will never see in a ranked taiko map.
verto
307 posts
Joined October 2012
verto

lolcubes wrote:

Was actually suggested many times already, and I guess people didn't really like the idea, though it's probably the most logical one since there are so many things you will never see in a ranked taiko map.
Before I thought that it's a matter of opinion, so keeping them is subjective, but after TAG4s were removed from the std pp pool it became an entirely different issue. They are literally the converts of standard in this regard.
Redon
302 posts
Joined November 2013
Redon
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Last edited by Redon , edited 1 time in total.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Converts are not Taiko maps. It's a relict of old times when taiko was only a mod and had too less maps. That was 7~8 years ago. If people want hard maps, they can make them.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Playing converts is a skill in taiko, whether you like it or not. Im just saying that particular one is EXTREMELY underweighted. I think it is just a broken rating. It has 280 bpm 500 note kdddk streams. How is that not impressive to do?

If you can even pass that map, it is genuinely more impressive to me than getting an S on deaf mutes. Sorry, but we maybe need to think some about converts. Yes, they are not intended for taiko, but neither are converts for ctb and they seem happy with those. Playing 1/8 is a skill, doing 280 1/4 bpm is a skill.

I know he missed like 84 times but when it is something like that (for reference id call it about 9.5 sr in our system), maybe we need to reward like at least 300+ pp for passing it. Just speaking hypothetically, dont want to spark some drama.
Redon
302 posts
Joined November 2013
Redon
‎
Last edited by Redon , edited 1 time in total.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Just little talk in #taiko


About the last sentence of mine, one can say that we could give a meaning to those maps. But at the end, in my opinion, it doesn't change the fact that there is no idea behind these beatmaps. And personaly I wouldn't like to put such maps equal or near to taiko specific maps(pp wise), since that would mean, encouraging players to play them and possibly abandond real taiko maps. I do believe that concern is eligible, since we had that in the past already; people having an eye on crazy converts, playing 1/8 and later, even trying to have it partly in Taiko maps. Can't be debated about since QATs would probably stop it, but the thinking of people itself couldn't be stopped.

So yeah... even though I find some of those replays impressive and can show respect to it, so is it after all to me just random button smashing what those converts give out without significant system or anything that makes the map reasonable. Makes also authentic and hard Taiko maps just meanless to those higherplayers, beside the fact of having some more pp.

Edit: Oh, Redon ninja'd me. He even ninja'd me with the same opinion
the_robot
15 posts
Joined October 2014
the_robot
Honestly, what would be the point of removing converts? If they are broken in the sense that you don't think they give enough pp, then just don't play them (Now if they were giving way too many pp that would be a different story entirely).

I know, at least for me, that when I first got into Taiko it was nice to already have a large selection of converted, rankable maps downloaded to help get me started and to pique my interest enough to start getting Taiko specific maps.

In terms of autoconverts not giving a lot of pp as long as the algorithm weights accuracy as much as it does then songs like apparition just won't give a lot of pp, which in the large scheme of things doesn't really affect much. The only people that would be hurt by this are the top 0.01% of players that probably wouldn't need it anyway. Is playing at 280 bpm a skill? Yes. Is being able to read a bunch of varying sv's in the same map a skill? Absolutely. Does the system need to change? Probably not. I guess the closest comparison I can think of is standard players getting ridiculous DT scores on maps like Gangsta and not netting pp from it. Yes it is absolutely impressive and a good bragging point, as was Flanks's score, but I don't see anyone complaining about those players not getting pp from it.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
Sure, converts are a skill. However it is a niche skill that doesn't fit within defining a taiko player's ability overall.

A lot of converts are memorizing SV changes and 1/8 stream hitting. Should that give a lot of pp? ...Not really. Should it be removed? No (Though I don't think many argued for that)! Currently the problem being faced is that a map can be really difficult but have an underwhelming reward, whereas another map can be very simple but yield a huge reward.

I don't think converts should be removed, but if they are proving to be more rewarding than actual taiko maps on an unrealistic scale, changes might need to be made...

.....However is that the current issue? Most top players only have very few converts as their top plays. And most plays with nothing but them are nowhere near the top. I don't think converts on taiko are an issue with the exception of songs like Holy Orders, The song with that green dude, T-T-Techno etc.

If they one day overcome taiko maps, then of course action should be taken, but for now, it's just a minor nuisance in the grand scheme of taiko ranks.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Backfire wrote:

Playing converts is a skill in taiko, whether you like it or not. Im just saying that particular one is EXTREMELY underweighted. I think it is just a broken rating. It has 280 bpm 500 note kdddk streams. How is that not impressive to do?
Yeah, well, the point of the system is performance points, not skill points.
There was a huge discussion about this already, probably in this very thread too.

Redon wrote:

Who is "people"?
People who made the system.
Nwolf
2,604 posts
Joined September 2012
Nwolf

OzzyOzrock wrote:

If they one day overcome taiko maps, then of course action should be taken, but for now, it's just a minor nuisance in the grand scheme of taiko ranks.
that's an argument for doing it earlier than too late WHEN they exist




You should not forget that when converts are removed from pp, they still have a ranking board and are still playable. They can compete on those specific ranking boards for the maps that are mapped in a way that would never be acceptable in taiko for good reasons. PP should only be for taiko-only maps because the general skill is based on how you play THEM, not how good you are on some non-sense convert map. We might as well add unranked non-sense taiko maps to pp because they are pretty much the same.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
That's fair; there is no need for "if one day it happens, THEN we should do this to happen" situations to exist.

I guess I didn't read very far into the pp-only removal in this thread, which actually sounds nice now that I think of it. PP isn't meant to calculate for converts so it shouln't be a thing huh
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
It wasn't about removing the diffs from scoreboard anyway. Just about rising pp for converts. Some people misunderstood that. But I think wemight be already done with the topic as we already discussed it (today) in #taiko:

http://osu.corin.me/logs/# #taiko - 20-05-2015
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
I'm having deja vu.

Woah.
Coro
2,394 posts
Joined September 2010
Coro
Before anything else though, I'm obliged to bring up those old taikosu maps, those were actually meant to be converted
If converts are removed from the pp system, I'd like to know if specific exceptions can be implemented, haha

Anyway, just the ramblings of an old player~
eeezzzeee
979 posts
Joined August 2013
eeezzzeee
Well while we are on this topic I'd like to bring up this thread I saw on the reddit a few weeks ago

Converts are apparently overweighted at the low-mid level. I don't think people should be getting 100+ pp on their first time ever playing taiko but..
lo and behold
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

MMzz wrote:

I'm having deja vu.

Woah.
No this is just the eternal debate.
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