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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)
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Since when did HD give not enough pp? I don't understand that buff.
HD DT EZ spam everywhere now, for so much pp as well lol.
I believe somewhere along the line the intent was to buff hidden on slow songs not fast ones
it seems to have gone wrong, i'd just wait it out.
it seems to have gone wrong, i'd just wait it out.
I don't know about you but to me this isn't brand new... back then it wasn't even worth the effort to even try to HD maps because you wouldn't get anything anyway or you'd just get little to nothing unless you played something stupid hard and HD'd it...Fudgyking wrote:
Since when did HD give not enough pp? I don't understand that buff.
Exactly. That was the plan in the past. Giving some boost for HR on faster songs and a boost for HD on slower songs. At least we discussed about it.Riince wrote:
I believe somewhere along the line the intent was to buff hidden on slow songs not fast ones
it seems to have gone wrong, i'd just wait it out.
But as you said, let's just wait for it.
as a sidenote, I haven't noticed a single pp increase on any of my FL scores, I could be wrong though
didou's hrhdfl on whatiforgotlol was 275 before the buff, it's now 305. @agu
something made real quick about SV scroll speeds
note:
ASS = absolute scroll speed. yeah. not arse.
despite having a huge difference in speed, 180 BPM SV 1.4, HR 16:9 (448) is easier to perform than 210 BPM HR SV 1.6 (448). it's due to the fact that 16:9 and 4:3 have the same time between notes' apparition and supposed hit. the ASS is like "units", and each "unit" does not have resolution considered.
I'm pretty sure the best thing to use is the upper table with them values that represent the ASS (yeah it's just SV*bpm) to consider HD and HR. HD will use the ASS tp tell whether it's hard or easy. Fairly sure 150-170 and below is where it gets harder, 225-230 is comfort for most, and hitting 420 it starts to get crazy.
HR on the other hand, is harder to tell. let's say it gets easier from 100ish (below you will have to resort on OD), and the starting point for HR to truly fade out is 280-300, using nomod ASS.
if you have anything to add, either on the HR side or the HD one, please use the first table in light blue to show where it hits a point. if you need more SV values tell me. I think [1.2;2.0] is a fairly large range for most maps. however I don't consider SV changes for now.
something made real quick about SV scroll speeds
note:
ASS = absolute scroll speed. yeah. not arse.
despite having a huge difference in speed, 180 BPM SV 1.4, HR 16:9 (448) is easier to perform than 210 BPM HR SV 1.6 (448). it's due to the fact that 16:9 and 4:3 have the same time between notes' apparition and supposed hit. the ASS is like "units", and each "unit" does not have resolution considered.
I'm pretty sure the best thing to use is the upper table with them values that represent the ASS (yeah it's just SV*bpm) to consider HD and HR. HD will use the ASS tp tell whether it's hard or easy. Fairly sure 150-170 and below is where it gets harder, 225-230 is comfort for most, and hitting 420 it starts to get crazy.
HR on the other hand, is harder to tell. let's say it gets easier from 100ish (below you will have to resort on OD), and the starting point for HR to truly fade out is 280-300, using nomod ASS.
if you have anything to add, either on the HR side or the HD one, please use the first table in light blue to show where it hits a point. if you need more SV values tell me. I think [1.2;2.0] is a fairly large range for most maps. however I don't consider SV changes for now.
Topic Starter
Unfortunately the infrastructure of taiko pp still doesn't really have a measure for scrolling speed, so I can't easily add a HR or HD bonus relative to scroll speed. The general consensus seems to be, that HD is worth too much right now, so I'll move it downwards a bit.
can't even manage to fetch SV and BPM at all? kinda odd, considering they're a bit like AR (not completely the same) so yeah. x_x
since we can add any scroll speed by using green line, isnt like AR. it seems really hard to manage for that indeed.
they're not exactly like AR, I know it. we don't even have "fixed values" but rather the scroll speed thing I talked about earlier.
but first get into the sole thing of ASS which is for 300 set pp to this, ASS 400 pp bonus to that blablah
then about SV changes it'll depend on the chart definitely. if there's a very hard section but SV 0.5 it won't be treated the same way as SV 2. for ther same thing
but first get into the sole thing of ASS which is for 300 set pp to this, ASS 400 pp bonus to that blablah
then about SV changes it'll depend on the chart definitely. if there's a very hard section but SV 0.5 it won't be treated the same way as SV 2. for ther same thing
Topic Starter
I can fetch those, but since they depend on timings within the map I'll have to conclude a reasonable "global" value for the pp calculations from within the difficulty calculations._Gezo_ wrote:
can't even manage to fetch SV and BPM at all? kinda odd, considering they're a bit like AR (not completely the same) so yeah. x_x
We don't know whether misses were made in parts of the map with fast SV or not after all.
That stuff needs additional balancing and implementation, hence it's not there yet. :p
PS: HD and FL boni should be a fair bit lower now. Does it look better?
I think HD is fine how it is right now. The first update might have been a bit much but this is fine.
imo the system is still overrating HD alot, just look at the recent DTHR of Sobatsuyu, his performances weights way less than some DTHD that have 0,50 accu below.
HR beats HD only when base OD is 7. Now there is just no point in doing DTHR on maps since it's just way harder and it will reward you way less.
HR beats HD only when base OD is 7. Now there is just no point in doing DTHR on maps since it's just way harder and it will reward you way less.
HD is fine. as it is, HR is too underrated. has to buff before nerf HD 
Maybe for like 2000-3500 pp players buff how much pp a 93% oni play with a few misses?
I personally cannot properly play onis (proper meaning fc 97%) and right now i always get some misses, look at my top plays
I feel that a lot of people in my country for example have a lot of pp from convert insanes, when oni maps are much harder.
http://puu.sh/gj3WM/41b3ba129a.png
http://puu.sh/gj3W2/6fdfc0c8c3.png
I personally cannot properly play onis (proper meaning fc 97%) and right now i always get some misses, look at my top plays
I feel that a lot of people in my country for example have a lot of pp from convert insanes, when oni maps are much harder.
http://puu.sh/gj3WM/41b3ba129a.png
http://puu.sh/gj3W2/6fdfc0c8c3.png
While I don't like the current state of lower difficulties for taiko either. It is better to make easier diffs that can be universally accepted, rather than what YOU think provides the proper challenge for a noobie. Easy/Normal serve the purpose of basic rhythms and learning the difference in color. That is it. There isn't really a reason for them to be more complex than they already are. Muzukashii serves as a good platform for applying your rhythm and reading abilities learned from Kantan/Futsuu into full fledged rhythms.
I used to think how you do, so I know where you are coming from. But I do agree that the star rating scale for kantan/futsuu is ridiculous. You can't even add a few simple 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing.
I used to think how you do, so I know where you are coming from. But I do agree that the star rating scale for kantan/futsuu is ridiculous. You can't even add a few simple 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing.
Let me correct you a bit MMzz on your last sentence ;P
You can't even *USE 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing (1/2, 3/2, 5/2, 7/2...)
It was a pain to fix Twitch Plays Pokemon because of that :C
You can't even *USE 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing (1/2, 3/2, 5/2, 7/2...)
It was a pain to fix Twitch Plays Pokemon because of that :C
Not even this. Even 1/1s are overrated as heck.MMzz wrote:
While I don't like the current state of lower difficulties for taiko either. It is better to make easier diffs that can be universally accepted, rather than what YOU think provides the proper challenge for a noobie. Easy/Normal serve the purpose of basic rhythms and learning the difference in color. That is it. There isn't really a reason for them to be more complex than they already are. Muzukashii serves as a good platform for applying your rhythm and reading abilities learned from Kantan/Futsuu into full fledged rhythms.
I used to think how you do, so I know where you are coming from. But I do agree that the star rating scale for kantan/futsuu is ridiculous. You can't even add a few simple 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing.
I've been told in my maps (by mods) that I overmapped the Kantans and Futsuus because 1/1s. And I'm like, seriously? They're not even high BPM, gosh...
To be fair, I think its mania that has underrated maps. If you look at all the other game modes, easy almost never has 1/2 notes, and normal will never have 1/4 triples, whereas in mania those are standard. So what I'm trying to say is we should be expecting "brain dead" maps at 1-2 star difficulty but somehow that's not the case for mania.
I'm not saying the taiko star rating is good right now though. No. lol
I'm not saying the taiko star rating is good right now though. No. lol
I'm going a bit off here to address another issue.
As we know TAG4 maps now don't yield any pp, with the explanation that they weren't be rankable according to the ranking criteria.
Now, we have converts which kind of acts the same as TAG4 maps to a lesser extend. A lot of people argued in the thread that they shouldn't count toward the pp and now that TAG4 maps were removed from the pool I don't see why would you keep converts in it.
As we know TAG4 maps now don't yield any pp, with the explanation that they weren't be rankable according to the ranking criteria.
Now, we have converts which kind of acts the same as TAG4 maps to a lesser extend. A lot of people argued in the thread that they shouldn't count toward the pp and now that TAG4 maps were removed from the pool I don't see why would you keep converts in it.
For me, X star Taiko maps are harder than X star 4K osu!mania maps.Redon wrote:
I still think star ratings in the lower difficulty range are hilariously overrated. It takes an insultingly simple map to even make it below the 1.5 cutoff for a Kantan.
I made a post about this about a year ago when the new star rating calculation was introduced, but I didn't receive any response at the time. I'm not sure if the Taiko community is fine with dedicating half of every map's diff spread to the mentally handicapped or if it's just that nobody cares about easy Taiko diffs, but if you compare the difficulty of a 1.5 star Taiko map to that of a 1.5 osu!mania map, it shouldn't take too long to realize that something is terribly wrong.
Taiko requires considerably more timing precision than mania, OD3 maps require about as much accuracy for a certain accuracy percentage as OD7 in mania (and if you use DT on OD3, the timing precision required goes beyond OD10 in mania; DT doesn't change the timing windows in mania beyond some rounding errors). Also, Taiko punishes misses more than mania.
Also, for me, Taiko maps are harder to read than osu!mania maps (with about 3000 plays, I still mess up randomly at reading colors even in 2 star maps; with 4K mania I never had that issue even when just starting playing).
I do think that 7K and 8K osu!mania lowest difficulties are underrated (learning to use ring fingers takes some time).
It's a matter of perspective. For example, when I started taiko, I could pass Muzukashii diffs with some effort. When I started mania, I was getting destroyed by easy diffs (7K).
We shouldn't really compare the two game modes, all they have in common is pressing the right button at the right time (and even that is questionable due to holds).
As for the star ratings, they were never really comparable cross game modes, so yeah, it's just different.
We shouldn't really compare the two game modes, all they have in common is pressing the right button at the right time (and even that is questionable due to holds).
As for the star ratings, they were never really comparable cross game modes, so yeah, it's just different.
Joking aside that actually makes no sense. I'm your daddy has a larger note-length ratio and significantly harder patterns. So from what we are told about pp it should give much more than Holy Orders.
Oh wait. BPM.
Oh wait. BPM.
Ok i'm here with a complaint.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/690982
this map is actually insanely difficult, it might as well be the hardest taiko map ever, but its only 5.8* (the standard is fucking 8*) and Flanks #1 (which is fucking insane) only gave him 123 pp. I do not understand this system. Sorry.
Not mad, just saying that I don't think this system weighs some things like length and bpm. All it seemingly weighs is patterns. Hades : The Rise is harder than this map according to SR.
I think it still needs some more tweaking towards bpm and SV in taiko.
I didn't read some of the recent pages, so im probably being overly redundant.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/690982
this map is actually insanely difficult, it might as well be the hardest taiko map ever, but its only 5.8* (the standard is fucking 8*) and Flanks #1 (which is fucking insane) only gave him 123 pp. I do not understand this system. Sorry.
Not mad, just saying that I don't think this system weighs some things like length and bpm. All it seemingly weighs is patterns. Hades : The Rise is harder than this map according to SR.
I think it still needs some more tweaking towards bpm and SV in taiko.
I didn't read some of the recent pages, so im probably being overly redundant.
92% accuracy B, that's why. SV doesn't work at all when it comes to difficulty calcs.
And if tom didn't change it, converted maps wight much less than taiko diffs.
400~ x100 is an insanely HUGE amount along with 80~ misses. 131pp for these stats is actually high, trust me. Now imagine, that people may lose ~1pp for every x100 hit, FLANKs got 384 of them (depends of course).
I have no idea how the map looks like, but since it's a convert I assume it's full of monocolored 1/8s (?). I can only guess, that full combo nomod would give around 400pp, because it's less than 6 stars, but along with the length it may end up giving like 450.
I have no idea how the map looks like, but since it's a convert I assume it's full of monocolored 1/8s (?). I can only guess, that full combo nomod would give around 400pp, because it's less than 6 stars, but along with the length it may end up giving like 450.
What if we just let converts go?_verto_ wrote:
I'm going a bit off here to address another issue.
As we know TAG4 maps now don't yield any pp, with the explanation that they weren't be rankable according to the ranking criteria.
Now, we have converts which kind of acts the same as TAG4 maps to a lesser extend. A lot of people argued in the thread that they shouldn't count toward the pp and now that TAG4 maps were removed from the pool I don't see why would you keep converts in it.
Was actually suggested many times already, and I guess people didn't really like the idea, though it's probably the most logical one since there are so many things you will never see in a ranked taiko map.
Before I thought that it's a matter of opinion, so keeping them is subjective, but after TAG4s were removed from the std pp pool it became an entirely different issue. They are literally the converts of standard in this regard.lolcubes wrote:
Was actually suggested many times already, and I guess people didn't really like the idea, though it's probably the most logical one since there are so many things you will never see in a ranked taiko map.
Converts are not Taiko maps. It's a relict of old times when taiko was only a mod and had too less maps. That was 7~8 years ago. If people want hard maps, they can make them.
Playing converts is a skill in taiko, whether you like it or not. Im just saying that particular one is EXTREMELY underweighted. I think it is just a broken rating. It has 280 bpm 500 note kdddk streams. How is that not impressive to do?
If you can even pass that map, it is genuinely more impressive to me than getting an S on deaf mutes. Sorry, but we maybe need to think some about converts. Yes, they are not intended for taiko, but neither are converts for ctb and they seem happy with those. Playing 1/8 is a skill, doing 280 1/4 bpm is a skill.
I know he missed like 84 times but when it is something like that (for reference id call it about 9.5 sr in our system), maybe we need to reward like at least 300+ pp for passing it. Just speaking hypothetically, dont want to spark some drama.
If you can even pass that map, it is genuinely more impressive to me than getting an S on deaf mutes. Sorry, but we maybe need to think some about converts. Yes, they are not intended for taiko, but neither are converts for ctb and they seem happy with those. Playing 1/8 is a skill, doing 280 1/4 bpm is a skill.
I know he missed like 84 times but when it is something like that (for reference id call it about 9.5 sr in our system), maybe we need to reward like at least 300+ pp for passing it. Just speaking hypothetically, dont want to spark some drama.