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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
I said we're not talking about only a few, because if we agree here that 20-30 is enough, and representative, than basically you also think that the suggested red weighting would be alright, and the excessive amount of scores taken into account by the green weighting is not needed.

With the red weighting, it would be exactly like you prefer: Your top25 performances would be weighted more than they are now, so if you have more good ones in your top plays, you'd be in a better spot relatively than someone with only a single or few outstanding performances, made on overvalued maps. At the same time making 30-40 good performances would cap you out, and you couldn't gain an edge by making like 50 more plays of the same level.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I think Drezi's logic is really solid here, I'd really like to see this happen. There's no point in rewarding players for scores that don't ever cost them any effort. This is a game of improvement, not grinding. You grind to improve, you don't just grind.
Bubble_old_1
Bubble_old_1
I think that ppv2 should take object density and patterns (squares, stars and triangles for example) in account.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
If you'dve read at least 10-20 pages of this thread you'dve known that ppv2 currently has no way of recognizing patterns. It knows the minimum distance between each note, and it already takes object density into account, as well as the map's settings.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2
I don't know if this has been answered by Tom but does AR affect pp? I believe I've seen it asked but I haven't seen an answer.
Mathsma
473 posts
Joined March 2013
Mathsma

Rewben2 wrote:

I don't know if this has been answered by Tom but does AR affect pp? I believe I've seen it asked but I haven't seen an answer.
I believe under 8 and over 10 give bonuses. I may be wrong, try checking the wiki to see if it says anything.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

Mathsma wrote:

Rewben2 wrote:

I don't know if this has been answered by Tom but does AR affect pp? I believe I've seen it asked but I haven't seen an answer.
I believe under 8 and over 10 give bonuses. I may be wrong, try checking the wiki to see if it says anything.
Oh shit there is, probably should have checked there first. It isn't specific about what AR's are beneficial but it is included.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
It's under 8 and above 10, yeah, but that bonus is usually negligible, since despite EZ heavily lowering the AR, it decreases the OD and CS just as much, making the map a lot easier. It'd probably help a bit for AR7/6 Insanes but I think (not sure) the bonus is mostly there for AR10.3,10.87 and 11 plays, specifically the ones higher up. I'm also going to guess that's part of the reason why DT gives so much pp. Even if 10.3 would only give 10pp on top of your total - it's still 10pp, it's the difference between a 290 and 300pp play. I don't really think AR should be rewarded that much (and it probably isn't) as pp seems to focus on rewarding for physical skills and not mental ones.

If it focused on mental skills, FL would give much more pp, but since mental skills are a lot easier to acquire than physical ones (reading/focus as opposed to streaming/jumping) they're not valued as much. AR11 should be an exception here since it requires quite extreme reflexes to be played properly. The only person I know of who can consistently play with AR11 (and do some sightread HDDTHR plays too) is Emperor, which goes to show that that AR does require a specific skill that not anyone can simply obtain.
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate

Tess wrote:

If it focused on mental skills, FL would give much more pp, but since mental skills are a lot easier to acquire than physical ones (reading/focus as opposed to streaming/jumping) they're not valued as much. AR11 should be an exception here since it requires quite extreme reflexes to be played properly. The only person I know of who can consistently play with AR11 (and do some sightread HDDTHR plays too) is Emperor, which goes to show that that AR does require a specific skill that not anyone can simply obtain.
Emperor's visual reaction time is 180ms average. That's great, but it's not abnormal at all. When I started osu!, my reaction time was around 230ms, but now it's dropped to around 190ms, so I know that reaction time is trainable. He also doesn't sightread AR11, either, he takes a little time to memorize the map. Basically, although it's partially determined by the person, I'm pretty sure half of people with solid aim can master AR11 in the way Emperor has. Emperor's real skill probably comes from the combination of his focus and some really fast memory recall ability, similar to loli_milk back in the day, who was able to play AR11 and full combo flashlight songs in little time.
Last edited by NixXSkate , edited 1 time in total.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert

Tess wrote:

... mental skills are a lot easier to acquire than physical ones (reading/focus as opposed to streaming/jumping) ...
hehe
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I never said it was impossible, I said it was very hard. Something that not just anyone can do - some people can, yes, but most won't ever be able to play AR11 like Emperor can. Also, by "sightread" I didn't mean "Sightread FC", I mean playing a map for the first time with AR11 and passing.
Winshley
osu! Alumni
2,384 posts
Joined May 2011
Winshley
With good memorization skill, AR can be made easier and can go up to the point that AR isn't even affecting difficulty at all. I don't even need any good reflexes on these maps.

EDIT: You ninja... You're right about being able to pass/FC in first try, but I wonder whether we can actually tell about it systematically...
Bubble_old_1
Bubble_old_1

Tess wrote:

I never said it was impossible, I said it was very hard. Something that not just anyone can do - some people can, yes, but most won't ever be able to play AR11 like Emperor can. Also, by "sightread" I didn't mean "Sightread FC", I mean playing a map for the first time with AR11 and passing.
Reading AR11 correctly without memorizing the map & followpoints is impossible. I'll tell you why: AR10 - 450ms. 450ms x 1.5 (DT) = 300ms.
Do you really think that your brain can react fast enough to 300ms by moving your hand and doing the pressing motion with the other one? No, memory has to take a part there, means that no one can FC an AR11 map at their first try.
Makan1
204 posts
Joined September 2013
Makan1
Hmm, I don't think AR11 is a specific skill because approach rate = how fast you can reacting to incoming hit circles. I think that if anybody plays it enough, they can get good at it, but like the ar10 to ar10.3 boundary, I think the 10.3 to 11 boundary is much harder and the OD with HR and DT makes it even harder to not fail, so some great skill does need to take place, but I don't think ar11 needs to be an exception. If in the case where we did grant ar11 a huge pp bonus, then I bet you more people than emperor would start practising it. Bonus to ar should be kept minimum as it already kinda is and focus on what takes talent.
-
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Bubble wrote:

Tess wrote:

I never said it was impossible, I said it was very hard. Something that not just anyone can do - some people can, yes, but most won't ever be able to play AR11 like Emperor can. Also, by "sightread" I didn't mean "Sightread FC", I mean playing a map for the first time with AR11 and passing.
Reading AR11 correctly without memorizing the map & followpoints is impossible. I'll tell you why: AR10 - 450ms. 450ms x 1.5 (DT) = 300ms.
Do you really think that your brain can react fast enough to 300ms by moving your hand and doing the pressing motion with the other one? No, memory has to take a part there, means that no one can FC an AR11 map at their first try.
Yes, thanks for repeating what I said.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
penguin plays it like FL you can tell by how his cursor goes to where the next note is going to be before a spinner is even over
i wish people would stop sucking him off about being able to 'read ar11'
KokaEdits
1 post
Joined June 2014
KokaEdits
I love this update! :)
Woobowiz
412 posts
Joined March 2014
Woobowiz
Aside from the current topic posted, has this also been considered to remedy HD/FL plays that are worth less pp?

Going from 99% acc no mod to 97% HD mod makes it worth considerably less pp for a (subjectively) more impressive performance.

If I may propose 2 different solutions.

1. Slightly decrease the pp bonus to HD, THEN apply the pp bonus to the SS value then add it onto your actual % acc score.
( SS-pp * HD % Bonus ) + ( pp from your play; no bonus)
This may occur in a bit of a pp inflation and people may be satisfied with the pp they get from HD

2. Use the current pp bonus of HD (or slightly lower it again) to calculate the pp difference between No-HD SS and a lower accuracy HD S-rank of equal pp value
First find the HD S-rank accuracy which is equal to a No-HD SS in terms of pp, let that be equal to a variable X
Then the pp calculated is : ( SS-pp - X% Acc S-rank pp ) + ( pp from your play; no bonus)
The issue with this is that the bonus might be TOO big for HR or DT runs.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2
I think HD is balanced at the moment. If a 97% HD score was worth more than a 99% non-HD score then I think it would be worth too much, 97% has 3x more 100/50's than a 99% score. Big difference. I can't speak about the formulas listed.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
hidden is basically a playstyle choice, it's barely even a mod. it's analogous to hidden or flashlight in mania which mania players have agreed do not make the map harder but just changes the way it plays to fit their preferences. ideally it wouldn't give bonus pp at all but standard is understandably different than mania and there are times when hidden makes things harder.

Which brings me to my next paragraph.

Why does it give bonus to aim?. Jumps are by no means more difficult with hidden, yet jumps are what require aim to complete. Overlapping and stacks and the like that DO get harder with hidden, are not exactly heavy on the aim requirement. I guess tom just couldn't think of anywhere else to put hidden since it doesnt really change anything, aim included, but just felt he had to give it something.
Genki1000
106 posts
Joined August 2013
Genki1000
If anything, I think hidden should give a bonus to accuracy instead of aim.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Why? Hidden doesn't change anything accuracy-wise, while it makes it harder to aim...
Genki1000
106 posts
Joined August 2013
Genki1000

GoldenWolf wrote:

Why? Hidden doesn't change anything accuracy-wise, while it makes it harder to aim...
I'm probably biased since I play easies and normals, but on maps like

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/356657
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/64670
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/94633&m=0

I'm pretty sure accuracy (ar?) is a bigger reason as to why some people don't add HD rather than aim.
Rokusho
76 posts
Joined November 2011
Rokusho

Riince wrote:

Why does it give bonus to aim?. Jumps are by no means more difficult with hidden, yet jumps are what require aim to complete. Overlapping and stacks and the like that DO get harder with hidden, are not exactly heavy on the aim requirement. I guess tom just couldn't think of anywhere else to put hidden since it doesnt really change anything, aim included, but just felt he had to give it something.
When the ar is low enough, hidden can make jumps really hard, since the note dissapears for a longer time than with higher approach rates. You have to remember the places of notes way more often at lower approach rates which makes both the aiming aspect harder and the ability to read hidden on lower approach rates. Lower ar is way more hard with the hidden mod on then without it. I do agree that the overlapping notes and stacks get harder with hidden, this should be looked at too imo.

The mod is pretty much balanced the way it is now, but a few little changes wouldn't hurt I guess.
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50

Woobowiz wrote:

Aside from the current topic posted, has this also been considered to remedy HD/FL plays that are worth less pp?

Going from 99% acc no mod to 97% HD mod makes it worth considerably less pp for a (subjectively) more impressive performance.

If I may propose 2 different solutions.

1. Slightly decrease the pp bonus to HD, THEN apply the pp bonus to the SS value then add it onto your actual % acc score.
( SS-pp * HD % Bonus ) + ( pp from your play; no bonus)
This may occur in a bit of a pp inflation and people may be satisfied with the pp they get from HD

2. Use the current pp bonus of HD (or slightly lower it again) to calculate the pp difference between No-HD SS and a lower accuracy HD S-rank of equal pp value
First find the HD S-rank accuracy which is equal to a No-HD SS in terms of pp, let that be equal to a variable X
Then the pp calculated is : ( SS-pp - X% Acc S-rank pp ) + ( pp from your play; no bonus)
The issue with this is that the bonus might be TOO big for HR or DT runs.
That wouldn't work because HD gives a bonus to aim, not overall PP.

Solution 1- If you were to get that bonus out of a lower % bonus but straight from total PP you would get a good bonus even for a map that has just 1 huge stream that doesn't move. Do you stationary streams are harder with HD? I don't.

Solution 2- Giving a straight bonus like that disregarding the acc and/or misses the run had would make the lower acc hdhr/hddt runs give way more pp.

I think HD is fine the way it is now. The only way to make it more accurate is get patten recognition in the PP calculation. Maps like this are hell to play with hd for me even though I don't think it would give that much bonus PP with HD https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55117 .
Maxis
151 posts
Joined May 2013
Maxis

Riince wrote:

hidden is basically a playstyle choice, it's barely even a mod. it's analogous to hidden or flashlight in mania which mania players have agreed do not make the map harder but just changes the way it plays to fit their preferences. ideally it wouldn't give bonus pp at all but standard is understandably different than mania and there are times when hidden makes things harder.

Which brings me to my next paragraph.

Why does it give bonus to aim?. Jumps are by no means more difficult with hidden, yet jumps are what require aim to complete. Overlapping and stacks and the like that DO get harder with hidden, are not exactly heavy on the aim requirement. I guess tom just couldn't think of anywhere else to put hidden since it doesnt really change anything, aim included, but just felt he had to give it something.
IMO Hidden does make the map slightly harder to read (slightly), there are maps where the difference barely matters (basic patterns, consistent spacing, hit every 1/2 beat, no stacks/overlaps/streams, AR9-10...) and maps where Hidden plays in a lot (complex jumps/patterns, weird spacing, complex timing, stacks/overlaps/streams, low AR). Point being, the difficulty in hidden comes with reading the map--it's just a bit harder to notice all of the notes and to be able to time when to hit them correctly than on nomod. It is a slight difficulty increase, but it's still there, with the added effect of having to figure out how to time everything without approach circles, or keep track of where everything is.

The problem with pp is that it doesn't take in plain reading, because there's no pattern recognition, nor is there really any way to be able to tell you correctly read everything if you miss it. I think Tom tried to squeeze in that reading aspect by boosting up the aim bonus (verifying you can read it) and a very slight bit to accuracy (verifying you can time it), which would be pretty sensical in my eyes.

Just as my two cents on this, though I only play Hidden casually, I actually think this way is pretty accurate and Hidden is pretty fairly balanced right now. Like tfg50 mentioned, the only way to make it more accurate is to add in pattern recognition.

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, like I said I only play Hidden casually.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
thing is by eliminating approach circles it can, and does actually make a lot of hard to read and dense maps easier to read by eliminating more visuals and giving the eyes less it has to take in.

it's probably balanced but really why aim specifically?

i almost feel like Hidden could practically be reduced to something in options next to snaking sliders and background video and the like.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
I don't see all your Hidden FC-s. Don't you want the free PP if Hidden being on or off is so non-relevant to you that you almost think it could be reduced to an option?
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
HD makes reading more difficult and making reading more difficult makes aim more difficult in ways that are hard to describe. Given the current system, HD pretty much has to give a bonus to aim if it's going to give a bonus at all. However, for people who play exclusively or almost exclusively HD, that difficulty increase is pretty much non-existent and HD is a six and two thirds percent (very slightly higher than that actually, assuming HD bonus is applied before power mean is taken) bonus to overall pp. The real question here is whether or not being able to play HD is worth 6.66% bonus to pp or if it's worth more or less than that. Looking at its effect on individual scores is a red herring until reading/pattern difficulty gets added - with the way we're currently measuring the difficulty of HD, we're really just determining whether or not someone can play HD on maps they play, not how well they can read it.

On an unrelated note, I think that both HD and FL should be unranked. Then we wouldn't be having these problems.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
Learning to read HD on certain ARs develops a permanent skill that can be applied to other maps aswell (unlike FL) and this skill should be rewarded to some extent imo. I agree about FL though.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

Learning to read HD on certain ARs develops a permanent skill that can be applied to other maps aswell (unlike FL) and this skill should be rewarded to some extent imo. I agree about FL though.
Oh please, Combo Bursts on adds more difficulty than Hidden, wheres my PP for that?
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

Drezi wrote:

I don't see all your Hidden FC-s. Don't you want the free PP if Hidden being on or off is so non-relevant to you that you almost think it could be reduced to an option?
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

Don't you want the free PP
don't you think I'd play DT more if I wanted 'free PP'?
uzzi
786 posts
Joined September 2012
uzzi

Riince wrote:

Drezi wrote:

Don't you want the free PP
don't you think I'd play DT more if I wanted 'free PP'?
Why are you trying to dodge the main point here? What Drezi is getting at is that if HD is as easy as you make it seem, then why aren't your nomod fcs with HD?
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Riince wrote:

it's probably balanced but really why aim specifically?
Play caren_sk's Nyan Nyan Drive map nomods (AR10 or AR9, doesn't matter)
Now play it with Hidden.

There's your answer.

Also, it bothers me how you constantly seem to be looking at everything that isn't relevant to the issues at hand. It looks more like you're trying to complain for the sake of complaining than actually trying to contribute and solve problems. It's like Drezi said - you complain about HD, yet don't appear to have any experience with it. How would you be qualified for deciding on whether it is or isn't relevant to aim in that situation? Also, at your rank, I doubt you've even attempted to set any aim-heavy HD scores at all. Checked your account and apparently you don't have any HD scores, let alone aim-heavy ones.

You posting in a thread filled with several players who play HD regularly and talking about what should happen in regards to hidden is like somebody with no mapping experience trying to tell RLC how to map. Seriously, be constructive, ask questions, or shut up. You'll only be getting in the way of progress if you make arguments based on hardly anything at all.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

- [ U z z I ] - wrote:

Why are you trying to dodge the main point here? What Drezi is getting at is that if HD is as easy as you make it seem, then why aren't your nomod fcs with HD?
i've already made my point: i don't like it. why don't i play with combo bursts? same reason.

anyway i guess a little perspective was a bad idea, but people getting upset was unexpected. I guess they're just afraid that I might be right? Well anyway i don't use hidden very often [last time i did was months ago and only one try because i hated it] but i know what it does and what I think about it and I'm going to say it whether people get emotional over the validity of it or not.

Then again It's not in my top ranks true, because if I don't go out of my way to have less fun just to get more PP I must not have a valid opinion? Give me a break. Keep your preference mod, get the extra PP without the added difficulty, im done with the topic because I don't really care that much.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Riince wrote:

I guess they're just afraid that I might be right?
Thanks for reading my post.
pielak213
463 posts
Joined April 2010
pielak213

Tess wrote:

Play caren_sk's Nyan Nyan Drive map nomods (AR10 or AR9, doesn't matter)
Now play it with Hidden.

There's your answer.
http://puu.sh/b89ci.png
http://puu.sh/b89dH.png
neither felt harder than the other but one will give 20~ more points for fc

edit: oops you probably can't see my hd icon
http://puu.sh/b89Ah.png
http://puu.sh/b89Cl.png
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

pielak wrote:

Tess wrote:

Play caren_sk's Nyan Nyan Drive map nomods (AR10 or AR9, doesn't matter)
Now play it with Hidden.

There's your answer.
http://puu.sh/b89ci.png
http://puu.sh/b89dH.png
neither felt harder than the other but one will give 20~ more points for fc

edit: oops you probably can't see my hd icon
http://puu.sh/b89Ah.png
http://puu.sh/b89Cl.png
WTF YOU ARENT DEAD?
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

pielak wrote:

neither felt harder than the other but one will give 20~ more points for fc

edit: oops you probably can't see my hd icon
http://puu.sh/b89Ah.png
http://puu.sh/b89Cl.png
Once you're adept at something it won't feel hard, just like I doubt playing a 5 star insane with HR will feel siginificantly harder to you, if at all, than playing it nomod. (I know the difficulty difference is not the same, it's just an example of the principle)

Riince you're just obnoxious claiming something is easy when you can't do it all. But you don't even realize it. It's getting annoying that you just pop up everywhere stating your opinion just for the sake of doing it, without being informed on the subject much at all.
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