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[New Rule] Songs with feedback sounds/effects

posted
Total Posts
39
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Topic Starter
Dolphin
Examples of what I am talking about:
  1. SOUND VOLTEX songs with their effects in the MP3.
  2. Live Replays of keysounded games such as BMS Sims, beatmania IIDX, pop'n music, etc.
  3. Live Replays of osu! maps.
I do not agree that using MP3s of songs with any sort of feedback sounds/effects should be rankable.
For example; SOUND VOLTEX uses special cut-out sounds, stuttering and explosions as feedback sounds for the people playing it, and are not a part of the original song. Keep in mind that these effects are played by human players, therefore they are not accurate, unless they are played by the game itself, in this case, the game does not have a Autoplay mode, nor does my examples above.

Before arguing against this rule, ask yourself this:
Would you map a replay of someone playing osu?
Would you map a replay of someone playing The Big Black?
Would you map a live replay of someone playing keysounded games, such as beatmania IIDX or pop'n music?
How is this anything different to my main example?

Mappers should use a proper MP3 from a proper source, such as Original Soundtracks, Analyzed Soundtracks, Albums, or other given download links.

For SOUND VOLTEX songs, there are perfectly obtainable sources that are presented in the form of Analyzed Soundtracks and GSTs (Game Soundtracks)

For BMS songs that do not have a source for an MP3, there is a tool that lets you create a Wave-file out of a BMS file. This Wavefile counts as an Autoplay as the software reads the BMS file and places the correct keysounds at the correct timing. You would then convert this .wav file into .mp3 for size reduction and osu! support. This also means that the output wave file is lossless from the BMS source.

So in the end, the new rule that I suggest should be added is
MP3s with feedback sounds from a game are not allowed.
I am completely open for debate. I'd like to hear arguments for and against this rule addition.
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
Support, it seems just stupid to map recordings of live plays.
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94
Question about SDVX.

Isn't the sound effects still can be heard even the player missed some notes on some respective video hosting sites?
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Topic Starter
Dolphin
The effects on SDVX are keysounded, you won't hear them if you don't play, much like IIDX and Pop'n.
Remillion Cross
522 posts
Joined October 2012
Remillion Cross
i didn't know if someone will map from a live replays of osu!maps
i need an example for this first
pkoa
28 posts
Joined December 2012
pkoa
I support this. Lets get this rule through :)
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Topic Starter
Dolphin

Remillion Cross wrote:

i didn't know if someone will map from a live replays of osu!maps
i need an example for this first
my point is that you wouldn't want to map a live replay of any video game and rank it. this was just a very extreme example (yet it fits)
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94
I see. What about autoplay videos then on IIDX, SDVX and Pop'n games?
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Topic Starter
Dolphin

ishimaru94 wrote:

I see. What about autoplay videos then on IIDX, SDVX and Pop'n games?
Acceptable, but you can also just as easily get the song MP3s from OSTs
SDVX however is a special case, it would be like mapping a replay of someone playing osu! which I wouldn't allow to be rankable.
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94
Well, I have no more questions to ask. I'll leave to the higher authorities to decide. :D
Liiraye
1,354 posts
Joined December 2011
Liiraye
People are free to map whatever they want, be it a live piano piece or someone taking a piss while humming the big black.

Ranking things however is a more delicate issue. The maps we rank here will officially represent this game in a way. Being careless or cutting corners
when it comes to the actual rhythm and hitsounds of a bemani game is not something I would want to have ranked if I ever had such a position.

If all the notes are taken into account, like in the map MiddleIsland - Roze, a live piano piece shouldn't be a problem since they're usually unique or variations of an original piece. A SDVX song that is completely ripped from a liveplay or other bemani games for that matter doesn't really make any damn sense to rank though. Especially if there are ways of obtaining the original soundtrack.

I fully agree.
Remillion Cross
522 posts
Joined October 2012
Remillion Cross

Dolphin wrote:

Remillion Cross wrote:

i didn't know if someone will map from a live replays of osu!maps
i need an example for this first
my point is that you wouldn't want to map a live replay of any video game and rank it. this was just a very extreme example (yet it fits)
oh i see. but the SDVX version, are you really sure if the effect was made only in replays ?
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Topic Starter
Dolphin
yes. the effects you hear on SDVX are sounds made by the player playing them.
Remillion Cross
522 posts
Joined October 2012
Remillion Cross

Dolphin wrote:

yes. the effects you hear on SDVX are sounds made by the player playing them.
okay then, no more question. For now, i leave it to others to decide.
i need a time to decide about this too :o
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
If the songs are from sound voltex which are being mapped, and are generally heard WITH the effects applied, then I see no issue in baking them into the mp3. If they are songs from elsewhere then I can see this being an issue.

Up to the mapper, in my opinion.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Topic Starter
Dolphin
the issue is that the sounds are inaccurately timed to the music due to them being played by human players.
Dainesl
898 posts
Joined May 2012
Dainesl
It might only be a few ms inaccurate but a few ms in a rhythm game can make ALL the difference.
HanzeR
921 posts
Joined May 2012
HanzeR
mapping to sdvx effects is really fun tho
Nwolf
2,598 posts
Joined September 2012
Nwolf
yes
Krah
osu! Alumni
1,023 posts
Joined March 2012
Krah
If people want to map an inaccurate mp3 let they do.


Clearly against the fact to interdict to people some mp3 / songs.
Avena
2,158 posts
Joined December 2012
Avena
I find this pretty smart, I've seen maps like Jenny's Flower have timing issues due to the SDVX effects, so if these aren't part of the mp3, it makes it much easier on the mapper and the player.
Even though I really like the effects SDVX brings into the song with the random beats (1/3 and such), I find it kinda bad when it comes to a map.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Topic Starter
Dolphin

Krah wrote:

If people want to map an inaccurate mp3 let they do.


Clearly against the fact to interdict to people some mp3 / songs.

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Your map must be perfectly timed. This means that your BPM and offset are spot-on, sliders end when they should, notes are generally following a recognizable rhythm (such as the lyrics or drums) which is comprehensible by a player, and that there are no unsnapped notes (you can check this by running AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) in the editor).
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_Criteria#Timing
Following this rule, it means that if the feedback sounds are inaccurate, its unrankable.
This matters hugely in a rhythm game.
Last edited by Dolphin , edited 1 time in total.
Redon
302 posts
Joined November 2013
Redon
‎
Last edited by Redon , edited 1 time in total.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Topic Starter
Dolphin

Redon wrote:

Meanwhile people are mapping songs with variable tempo like Roze and nobody bats an eyelid.
Roze was properly timed.

I should also mention this doesn't only apply to SDVX effects, this applies to anything that's similar.
Redon
302 posts
Joined November 2013
Redon
‎
Last edited by Redon , edited 1 time in total.
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear

Redon wrote:

It was properly timed, but you can't strive for perfection by the millisecond when timing a song like that.
Yet Charles445 did.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Topic Starter
Dolphin
For SDVX songs, the original songs are easily obtainable without effects, and if you decide you want to map a version with the effects, the artist wouldn't be i.e. t+pazolite, it would be something like t+pazolite remixed by [insert sdvx player here].
Since SDVX replays are ripped from video hosting sites, they would not be of a comfortable quality.
You should get the original song from an analyzed soundtrack rather than ripping it off a video.

Surely anyone can map what they want but it shouldn't be rankable. I doubt anyone would rank a map of some top player playing The Big Black, so why should this be rankable? It's the same case.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
If said effects add to the experience of the song, then there really shouldn't be a problem that they're slightly off-time. A bunch of older songs have inconsistent timing due to human error, and they can fluctuate between a small range of bpm, or an artist might sing a vocal slightly off-beat, without that causing people to stop mapping, playing or enjoying the music.

In most cases if only one beat is slightly off, mapping it as if it weren't off-beat in the first place feels fine, gameplay-wise anyway.
Dainesl
898 posts
Joined May 2012
Dainesl
Imagine if we accepted slightly mistimed charts in IIDX; the time frame to get the best judgement score (P.Great) is like 3ms, and some of these effects could be off by as much as 5ms; easily outside that boundary. And 'cause these are additive, you can't do anything except try and average the timing of the effects with the main beat; so you end up being like 2.5ms early and 2.5ms late in the best case scenario; again I will say that a few ms can make all the difference, and like Dolphin said, a map must be perfectly timed. That's all I'll say; I'm not gonna argue against this.

EDIT: Timing is more lenient in osu!, yes, but timing's about 15ms at OD 10 (this is either way, remember, so it can only be 7.5ms early or 7.5ms late if I have it right) so having an entire third of that timeframe being eliminated is not good! THIS IS A RHYTHM GAME, PEOPLE.

EDIT 2: Found out that timing is based on frames so it's 1 frame for P.Great
Last edited by Dainesl , edited 1 time in total.
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
As much as I disagree with mapping whoosh bang versions of songs due to the fact that I, personally, think they sound bad, it's not really an issue. For what it's worth, the GST versions have inconsistent timing in some cuts of the songs due to the way the track is spliced into a shorter version, which are also present in the live play rips.

If you're going to be so anal about disallowing sdvx audio files entirely, you might as well require all mp3s supply a .log from the ripping tool to ensure nothing fishy has been done in the process of obtaining said mp3. Play any of the currently ranked mapsets using sdvx mp3s, you won't have an issue with the timing.

Dolphin wrote:

if you decide you want to map a version with the effects, the artist wouldn't be i.e. t+pazolite, it would be something like t+pazolite remixed by [insert sdvx player here].
They are not remixing anything by playing it. If anything, it should be "remixed" by the person doing the effects (MAD CHILD, TAKUYA), most of this information can be found by actually playing the game. I firmly believe the title should remain intact, though.

peppy wrote:

If the songs are from sound voltex which are being mapped, and are generally heard WITH the effects applied, then I see no issue in baking them into the mp3. If they are songs from elsewhere then I can see this being an issue.
Some of the songs are originals composed for the game (KAC song contests, other various contests), others are crossovers from other bemani games, and then there's the licensed vocaloid/touhou/various doujin circle tracks which have been effected. Some can only be found in the game, others can be found elsewhere, from albums.

http://www18.atwiki.jp/sdvx/pages/1059.html
Zeraph
266 posts
Joined September 2012
Zeraph
are there any problem maps using the effected sdvx tracks that brought about you wanting to make this thread? so far every sound voltex map that was using the effected track has been great, no outstanding timing issues. there haven't been any massive group complaints about timing/ability to acc on any of these maps as far as i know so...your point is bleak, pretty hard to understand where you're coming from.
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