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Can hardwork overcome natural talent?

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chox_old
125 posts
Joined August 2012
chox_old
it's safe to assume that answer is no
and those saying otherwise are most of the time just deluding themselves just like those who say that they work harder than rest as there is always someone who'll work harder than you (and if this person is talented person then you're just no match to him, nor will be)
Last edited by chox_old , edited 1 time in total.
deletemyaccount
730 posts
Joined May 2013
deletemyaccount
Of course it can. Just because someone has "natural talent", doesn't make them automatically better. It just means that they have more potential; in which hard work is also required to "tap into" this potential.

just less work tho
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Xcrypt
People with good genes for some specific thing will always have an advantage over you. It's not just about past exp. But even those people won't get far without hard work. The difference is usually that they just need less time to reach the same level, but if we're talking about expert level (10000+ hours), nobody can get there without hard work.
Blueprint
654 posts
Joined January 2014
Blueprint
I think tryharding is a talent in itself..

I tryhard but I don't try hard enough there for 0 talent is what I think anyways, its more of patience in my eyes.

I watched a friend sit on 1 song for 1 hour to correct 1x 100 he had for an SS, I would only ever find the patience to do this if the song was like 200 combo max
iderekmc
368 posts
Joined April 2013
iderekmc
and savants? xD
kasdeya
39 posts
Joined December 2013
kasdeya

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
Tamako Lumisade
204 posts
Joined October 2012
Tamako Lumisade
Talent helps you to improve faster. Some of people has better feeling of rhytm, some of them has it worse. If I'd play on a piano for my whole life, will I be better than Chopin or someone?
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Husky wrote:

If I'd play on a piano for my whole life, will I be better than Chopin or someone?
You won't know until you try.
Foneza
105 posts
Joined February 2013
Foneza
To be a 'natural' at something, it's like a god's gift. But 'hardwork' is more satisfying in the end. You're able to win 'natural talented' people with 'hardwork'. I don't know. It's just you have to 'FEEL' it yourself.

AND YES, HARDWORK CAN OVERCOME NATURAL TALENT.
But time will tell.
takaharrue
66 posts
Joined September 2013
takaharrue
I guess some people must have the guide to play osu! coded in their genes somewhere. Huh, that's really funny. I guess I should just kill myself over and over until' I get that gene.

-_-
Foneza
105 posts
Joined February 2013
Foneza

takaharrue wrote:

I guess some people must have the guide to play osu! coded in their genes somewhere. Huh, that's really funny. I guess I should just kill myself over and over until' I get that gene.

-_-
I Feel You Bro.
takaharrue
66 posts
Joined September 2013
takaharrue


Oh no worries, guys. I found it, I guess there is a gene that codes for Osu! skill after all. Wow, that's funny. I should submit my findings to a scientific journal.
Karuta-_old_1
947 posts
Joined November 2009
Karuta-_old_1

takaharrue wrote:



Oh no worries, guys. I found it, I guess there is a gene that codes for Osu! skill after all. Wow, that's funny. I should submit my findings to a scientific journal.
where did you get this?
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

[MY] yummy90 XP wrote:

takaharrue wrote:



Oh no worries, guys. I found it, I guess there is a gene that codes for Osu! skill after all. Wow, that's funny. I should submit my findings to a scientific journal.
where did you get this?
probably mad it himself

edit: im leaving that typo there
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl
There's a pretty big misconception here that "talent" is some sort of baseline level of skill, and that's not really true. Rather, it represents your ability to learn that skill. It isn't a substitute for hard work, it's a supplement. Because of this, it's both totally possible and completely impossible to overcome natural talent with hard work; you don't need natural talent at all, but if you had more of it you would undoubtedly be a better player than you are currently.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
XGeneral2000
86 posts
Joined April 2011
XGeneral2000
I don't know why anybody cares about this. We can circlejerk about this all day, about the definition of talent and whether it's genetic or based on learning and parallel skills or just Ondore's lies, but in the end, nothing changes at all.

If talent exists and you don't have it, you will never have it. All you have, and all you'll ever have, is hard work. Thinking really hard about talent and what it is and how significant it is won't give you any of it. The guy who has half your rank with half your playcount will still be better than you, and there is nothing you can do about it, except maybe play some more. That guy probably doesn't worry about talent, and neither should you.

If you want to think of alternate ways to get better besides retryx1000, you can look at changing your mentality, or the way you read maps, or your equipment/settings/skin/monitor/whatever - things you can actually change. Watch your replays, look at what you do wrong. Watch top replays, look at what they do differently from you. But thinking about stuff you can't change just wastes your time and makes you mad.

tl;dr just go play
takaharrue
66 posts
Joined September 2013
takaharrue
I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Ethelon
76 posts
Joined May 2013
Ethelon

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
<Removed a bit here about my own play.>

Are you trying to claim that a certain amount of plays is necessary to reach certain rankings?
Last edited by Ethelon , edited 2 times in total.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Just scrolling through the performance charts I can see plenty of people that are rank 13k~ with 5-6k playcount.
Foneza
105 posts
Joined February 2013
Foneza

Rewben2 wrote:

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Just scrolling through the performance charts I can see plenty of people that are rank 13k~ with 5-6k playcount.
^ THEY LIED.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Now that's pretentious.
Jordan
1,037 posts
Joined December 2010
Jordan
No it won't. It's like saying you'll run as fast as Usain Bolt if you try hard enough. You just won't, because he's got perfect genetics and you don't. Same goes for osu!, there are people who get insanely good at the game incredibly fast and others take up to 2 years to be able to even fc nomod insanes (me lol) playing for the same amount of time as said talented person. tl;dr Hard work beats talent but only if talent but only if talent doesn't work hard. You think Cookiezi really tried THIS hard to be good? He probably was at my current skill level in 5 or 6 months of playing. And I play since more than 3 years.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
If you have the time to spend 6 hours a day playing nothing but maps with DT then sure. You may not be #1 quality, but certainly you could be someone well above average. I would say mostly anyone has the potential to be in the top 1000 if they had enough patience. Very few people have the time or the patience to avoid bad habits, and the road isn't exactly enjoyable, which makes it hardly worth the effort to try to become the next cookiezi. I mean Cookiezi played the game until he went blind and it probably wasn't fun.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Jordan wrote:

No it won't. It's like saying you'll run as fast as Usain Bolt if you try hard enough. You just won't, because he's got perfect genetics and you don't. Same goes for osu!, there are people who get insanely good at the game incredibly fast and others take up to 2 years to be able to even fc nomod insanes (me lol) playing for the same amount of time as said talented person. tl;dr Hard work beats talent but only if talent but only if talent doesn't work hard. You think Cookiezi really tried THIS hard to be good? He probably was at my current skill level in 5 or 6 months of playing. And I play since more than 3 years.

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO
:oops:
Last edited by VoidnOwO , edited 1 time in total.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

BRBP wrote:

you're proud of your rank/playcount ratio. You should be.
What.

This has nothing to do with that at all. Those "talented" people I see are only people who play (much) more than other players, play the right maps instead of retrying easy stuff for SS or whatever, and understand themselves what they do wrong and how to fix that asap (And no I don't think the latter qualify as a "talent")
If anything it's a luck factor of finding the right maps to play/practice on, or spending more time to find them than others

It just really irks me when people are saying X is better than them because they have "talent", when in fact they weren't playing/practicing as much/efficent as them
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

takaharrue wrote:



Oh no worries, guys. I found it, I guess there is a gene that codes for Osu! skill after all. Wow, that's funny. I should submit my findings to a scientific journal.
thread...
takaharrue
66 posts
Joined September 2013
takaharrue

Rewben2 wrote:

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Just scrolling through the performance charts I can see plenty of people that are rank 13k~ with 5-6k playcount.

And we know none of them are 2'nd account/offline players, right?!?! Yeah. Also, they could have pp farmed.

I'm done with this gameplay and ranking forum community and its autism.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Ignorant, I was your rank with less than half of your playcount, a little less than 5k and osu is my first rhythm game.
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
I was expecting to see a better rank/PC out of someone with the guts to say that butSure let's just accept that. But guess what! Nobody cares how talented you are. People only care how good you are, regardless of play count.
So what if it took Uan 200k plays to get to rank 1XX (Not sure what his peak was, he's dropping it apparently)? Does it mean he's bad or worse than other people his rank with less PC? I highly doubt it. Heck, just check the ranking list, there are people in the top 50 that have a fraction of rrtyui's plays, does that mean they're "more talented" than him? Even if they are, again - nobody cares. Better is better, nobody cares how "talented" you think you are.
Jordan
1,037 posts
Joined December 2010
Jordan

GoldenWolf wrote:

Jordan wrote:

No it won't. It's like saying you'll run as fast as Usain Bolt if you try hard enough. You just won't, because he's got perfect genetics and you don't. Same goes for osu!, there are people who get insanely good at the game incredibly fast and others take up to 2 years to be able to even fc nomod insanes (me lol) playing for the same amount of time as said talented person. tl;dr Hard work beats talent but only if talent but only if talent doesn't work hard. You think Cookiezi really tried THIS hard to be good? He probably was at my current skill level in 5 or 6 months of playing. And I play since more than 3 years.

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
So you're claiming genetics don't exist? Everybody is a machine made in the same way?
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
So you're claiming genetics don't exist? Everybody is a machine made in the same way?


Genetics will only get so far in aiding your climb to the top, if we pull 100 people off of the streets what are the chances one of them can maintain a 220bpm single tap without ever playing osu ?
Jordan
1,037 posts
Joined December 2010
Jordan

Clappy wrote:

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
So you're claiming genetics don't exist? Everybody is a machine made in the same way?


Genetics will only get so far in aiding your climb to the top, if we pull 100 people off of the streets what are the chances one of them can maintain a 220bpm single tap without ever playing osu ?
Nobody will be able to. Genetics will determine who will learn how to do it with less effort than others.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Jordan wrote:

Clappy wrote:

So you're claiming genetics don't exist? Everybody is a machine made in the same way?


Genetics will only get so far in aiding your climb to the top, if we pull 100 people off of the streets what are the chances one of them can maintain a 220bpm single tap without ever playing osu ?
Nobody will be able to. Genetics will determine who will learn how to do it with less effort than others.
I'm sorry, but genetics really can not determine if you can 220 single tap because single tapping is more than just learning how to do it, you physically can not and I repeat can not sustain such a high bpm single tap because, whatever hand you choose to tap with does not have the muscle nor stamina to sustain such high energy movement. You will need to build muscle in that hand and that will only come with practice, regardless of genetics.
usa
193 posts
Joined September 2012
usa

Clappy wrote:

You will need to build muscle in that hand and that will only come with practice, regardless of genetics.
uhh, just so people don't get the wrong idea...
you barely have any muscles in your hands, and the ones you use regarding finger movement for osu! come from the forearm muscles.
so if you think the pain and stiffness in your finger joints is you building muscles, you're on your way to firetrucking up your fingers for no reason.

also, as far as genetics is concerned in osu!, it only determines the maximum limit for how fast and fluently you can move your fingers.
in terms of skill growth in osu!, that's mainly determined by the amount of practice as well as the efficiency of the training regiment.
pooptartsonas
128 posts
Joined January 2012
pooptartsonas

Clappy wrote:

Jordan wrote:

Nobody will be able to. Genetics will determine who will learn how to do it with less effort than others.
I'm sorry, but genetics really can not determine if you can 220 single tap because single tapping is more than just learning how to do it, you physically can not and I repeat can not sustain such a high bpm single tap because, whatever hand you choose to tap with does not have the muscle nor stamina to sustain such high energy movement. You will need to build muscle in that hand and that will only come with practice, regardless of genetics.
And suddenly genes don't affect your physical capabilities at all?? I don't get why it's such a hard concept that genetics affect EVERYTHING YOU EVER DO because everyone has different genes. It's one thing to argue that genetics have a minimal impact (which btw I don't agree with at all), but I don't see how people can seriously argue that genes have no effect on ability to progress in osu!.
takaharrue
66 posts
Joined September 2013
takaharrue

nooblet wrote:

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
I was expecting to see a better rank/PC out of someone with the guts to say that butSure let's just accept that. But guess what! Nobody cares how talented you are. People only care how good you are, regardless of play count.
So what if it took Uan 200k plays to get to rank 1XX (Not sure what his peak was, he's dropping it apparently)? Does it mean he's bad or worse than other people his rank with less PC? I highly doubt it. Heck, just check the ranking list, there are people in the top 50 that have a fraction of rrtyui's plays, does that mean they're "more talented" than him? Even if they are, again - nobody cares. Better is better, nobody cares how "talented" you think you are.
People with less retries just have a different take at getting better. I came from a game where you had to retry 100s of times over and over before you got a good "time" in the game. So, retrying over and over is what I'm used to. That explains my high play count. Also, I'm currently playing Osu! with a rubber dome keyboard and a 120 fps laptop, and that's not good considering hardware is one of the most important things in Osu!, so I'm basically kind of crippled.

Also, just stop saying there is such a thing as talent. What kind of gene is gonna make you better at Osu!? Strong fingers? Anything that the average person can't improve on their own without having the genetics for? No. No one is just born with the ability to be good at Osu!. Do you know how ridiculous people sound when they say stuff like that? Even if you are "talented" anyone can catch up to your skill and then you will be on the same level, regardless that the other person is considered "talented". There's no one that will always be better than you no matter how hard you try, and no one that will be better than you with the same amount of total effort. I feel like people are just giving up on themselves when they say "oh ill never be gud cuz ppl r born with the genetics to play osu!! and i wasnt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

pooptartsonas wrote:

Clappy wrote:

Nobody will be able to. Genetics will determine who will learn how to do it with less effort than others.
I'm sorry, but genetics really can not determine if you can 220 single tap because single tapping is more than just learning how to do it, you physically can not and I repeat can not sustain such a high bpm single tap because, whatever hand you choose to tap with does not have the muscle nor stamina to sustain such high energy movement. You will need to build muscle in that hand and that will only come with practice, regardless of genetics.
And suddenly genes don't affect your physical capabilities at all?? I don't get why it's such a hard concept that genetics affect EVERYTHING YOU EVER DO because everyone has different genes. It's one thing to argue that genetics have a minimal impact (which btw I don't agree with at all), but I don't see how people can seriously argue that genes have no effect on ability to progress in osu!.[/quote]

genetics affect EVERYTHING YOU EVER DO because everyone has different genes

hair color affect EVERYTHING YOU EVER DO because everyone has different hair color

Genes may have an affect on what you physically but what is so hard to move a cursor and click a few circles rhythmically? Now I do agree that genes affect everything you do, but it's not because everyone has different genes. What I'm trying to say here is, genes have no impact at all because everyone needs to develop of rhythm and until you can pull someone off of the streets that can single tap 220bpm consistently and accurately, genes have no impact because NO ONE IS BORN PROGRAMMED TO PLAY THIS FUCKING GAME.
pooptartsonas
128 posts
Joined January 2012
pooptartsonas
Some people's brains are more easily able to understand rhythm and build the muscle memory required, so some people will take less time to build accuracy skill. Some people naturally have stronger wrists, so once they get used to the mechanics of streaming, they will be much better at it with less time. And so on. Of course people are not born programmed to play the game, but that doesn't mean nothing we are born with affects how we play the game...
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