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A few words of so-called combos

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Soarezi

Full Tablet wrote:

Almost wrote:

Accuracy is only half the game. Actually having your cursor on the circle is the other. People wouldn't care about aim much in an accuracy based tournament.
The current scoring system values aim much more than accuracy.
Aim > Accuracy, i'd rather see remote control 95% DT than HD HR 100%
Rewben2

Almost wrote:

It does, but it's not as important and players with better accuracy could do better accuracy even with misses.
I agree, it's just I don't think that a match should be decided on who misses, because ultimately it is. A player with slightly better aim can beat someone with far better accuracy as a result of this. But when trying to rank in a map, the accuracy player would always get a higher rank because they can just retry until its a fc. Would you agree on an accuracy-based system if the misses were penalised much higher than it is now - but not to the point that it's the decider of a game?
Almost

Rewben2 wrote:

Almost wrote:

It does, but it's not as important and players with better accuracy could do better accuracy even with misses.
I agree, it's just I don't think that a match should be decided on who misses, because ultimately it is. A player with slightly better aim can beat someone with far better accuracy as a result of this. But when trying to rank in a map, the accuracy player would always get a higher rank because they can just retry until its a fc. Would you agree on an accuracy-based system if the misses were penalised much higher than it is now - but not to the point that it's the decider of a game?
I would love to have an accuracy-based mode in a tournament where players play some random OD10 map and the game is decided by highest accuracy (average for a team game). But other than that, I would not support it.
TakuMii

Pelaaja_X wrote:

What you said that scores would be wiped, that's not really true. A rpgram could calculate all the scorse again based on the replays and then re-order the lists. I know it would be a shock a first, but it would work.
The server only keeps track of the replays for the top 50 scores, so that can't work. He could just keep the top 50 scores and rearrange those, but that would be unfair to all of the other players. The only other option would be to completely wipe the score database, which won't happen.

As I said, peppy would change they system if he could, but wiping the scores is unfair to the players and would upset a lot of people.
D33d
:I was watching peppy's presentation that he'd uploaded to his blog and he actually said that he would want to make the scoring more accuracy-based. The game's been going for years with combo-dependent scoring, so it'd be hard to uproot all of that and shift to an accuracy system.

Besides, who's to say that combo-based is wrong? If rewarding the player for managing a consistent playthrough means calculating the combo, then the better players are going to FC a map anyway.



DEEDIT: Just realised that other people had already pointed out the first thing. Besides, the whole point of the scoring system is that it mirrors that in Ouendan. Unfortunately, it's something that people will merely have to put up with for the time being, so they might as well strive to achieve highly based on that system.
RaneFire
pp disappears for 1 week and look what happens
Rewben2

RaneFire wrote:

pp disappears for 1 week and look what happens
You even linked threads of months ago discussing a similar thing - What are you talking about?
strikeR
this is so wrong in many levels... zzz
you have to think that maps have differents difficulties in it so you have to fc the hard part in the map in order to have good scores, look at maps like airman it has like 2 hard parts and that's the difficult.
if this is implemented or something it would be so bad..
RaneFire

Rewben2 wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

pp disappears for 1 week and look what happens
You even linked threads of months ago discussing a similar thing - What are you talking about?
The discussion came back to life.

I dunno, it's not like it couldn't have happened while pp was up... it's just good timing, that's all.
Rewben2

RaneFire wrote:

The discussion came back to life.
I don't see any connections to pp being disabled in this thread, it could have been made 2 weeks ago and nothing would be different. I'm sure the op knows there's no way the system would be so changed in such a major way after the way it has been running for years - peppy has also talked about this exact topic in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjuaFiLia6w this vid and said it won't be changed.
Myke B
Combo is more fun imo, and how would mods work with acc multiplier? How the game works right now is completely fine imo. Osu isn't about 1 aspect, it includes all of them: aim, speed, acc, etc. You do your best with all of them to get a high rank on a map.. not 1. and you demonstrate that you meet that map's requirements for speed, acc, aim by fcing it.
GoldenWolf
osu! is about FCing, not getting high accuracy. High acc is a bonus when you FC, else it's useless
SanicHegehog

Rewben2 wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

The discussion came back to life.
I don't see any connections to pp being disabled in this thread, it could have been made 2 weeks ago and nothing would be different. I'm sure the op knows there's no way the system would be so changed in such a major way after the way it has been running for years - peppy has also talked about this exact topic in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjuaFiLia6w this vid and said it won't be changed.
He seems to be doing no more than taking note of a coincidence. It may feel far fetched to you, but as I see it, his logic goes some along the lines of this:

1. pp is a ranking system.
2. Scores are ranked.
3. Combos decide scores.
4. pp dissapears.
5. Discussion to do with scoring/ranking/thatkindofmetricidea appears
Icyteru
Because accuracy dictates how well you can play the map better than combo can.
TakuMii
The pp system doesn't use scores to weigh a play's worth. The only thing score was really used for was to limit the amount of scores that the pp system looked at, which was a result of an inefficiency that ppv1 had. In ppv2, score probably won't matter at all (aside from spinner scores and/or the displayed list order), since the system will look at all ranked plays instead of a set amount of ranks.
iWhorse
go make your own game


or play mania instead
GenoClysm
ignore my first post with any informative information

it is how it is, and it won't be changed

Soarezi wrote:

Aim > Accuracy, i'd rather see remote control 95% DT than HD HR 100%




get good scrubs
edit: informative information what
Kareov
lol happy to see that.
MandyJS

iWhorse wrote:

or play mania instead
That's what I did... the whole needing full combos thing was very frustrating for me, so when I discovered you can still do well in mania without having to worry about fc's, I fell in love with mania mode and never looked back :D

Doesn't mean that I don't still try to fc the mania maps, but I don't stress over missing a note in the middle because my keyboard happened to stick or I was daydreaming or whatever the case may be :P
casmith789
Looks like ppv2 won't depend so much on combo - WubWoofWolf has Remote Control HD + DT with 5 misses as his top ppv2 performance (if it doesn't change), and I have an insane with 1 miss early enough to knock me out of top 2000 score in my top 10 list.
JAKACHAN
With the state of the game in terms of ranked maps anyway an accuracy based system wouldn't work as well as many think. It's way to easy to 100% most of the maps ranked nowadays to the point where rank lists are littered with 100%'s and it just becomes a spin war.

It is true that ppv2 is looking to change it a bit as some ranks that aren't full combo but are still ridiculous scores by players are being counted as their best scores (see jesus1412's C ranking best performance.)
Topic Starter
Pelaaja_X

GoldenWolf wrote:

osu! is about FCing, not getting high accuracy. High acc is a bonus when you FC, else it's useless
Are you kidding me? I can't believe someone really thinks like that.

It's like if you said that life isn't about making good decisions but just about seeing how long can you live without making a mistake.

I think everyone agrees that rythm is the point of this game. And it practically means playing those 300's. The combos, ugh how I hate them, are just making this game a panic survival.

Remember: this game is about MUSIC, and real musicians don't calculate combos at all.

Needless to say, I totally disagree with GoldenWolf
Rewben2

Pelaaja_X wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

osu! is about FCing, not getting high accuracy. High acc is a bonus when you FC, else it's useless
Are you kidding me? I can't believe someone really thinks like that.

It's like if you said that life isn't about making good decisions but just about seeing how long can you live without making a mistake.

I think everyone agrees that rythm is the point of this game. And it practically means playing those 300's. The combos, ugh how I hate them, are just making this game a panic survival.

Remember: this game is about MUSIC, and real musicians don't calculate combos at all.

Needless to say, I totally disagree with GoldenWolf
Except the ranking system is actually about combo - You can get 50's on every single note but fc and beat someone who got 90%+ with misses, because its so aim dependant. Referring to other rhythm games or actual musicians is dumb because osu! is quite different to a lot of other games in the scoring aspect. Your "real musician" analogy doesn't apply at all... There's no such thing as "combo" in music or 300's/100's. In real music (at least if you were playing an instrument) it would actually be about playing all the correct notes in time/in tune. You can't just skip notes randomly.

The fact you disagree with Goldenwolf doesn't make much sense - In the current state osu! is combo reliant. That is not opinion, it's factual that the current scoring system is combo reliant. If you believe that the system should be changed, this in no way related to Golden's statement about how the current system functions.
Almost

Pelaaja_X wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

osu! is about FCing, not getting high accuracy. High acc is a bonus when you FC, else it's useless
Are you kidding me? I can't believe someone really thinks like that.

It's like if you said that life isn't about making good decisions but just about seeing how long can you live without making a mistake.

I think everyone agrees that rythm is the point of this game. And it practically means playing those 300's. The combos, ugh how I hate them, are just making this game a panic survival.

Remember: this game is about MUSIC, and real musicians don't calculate combos at all.

Needless to say, I totally disagree with GoldenWolf
This isn't just a rhythm game but one that involves aiming as another mechanic. I agree that rhythm is 1 point of the game but the game was designed to have aiming as the main mechanic. If you don't like the way the game is played then don't play it, simple as that. You're being too close minded on what a game really is as well. A game can be whatever the fuck the creator wants it to be, not something that has to fit some made-up rule. Also, real musicians play the music while we are hitting buttons to the music, there is a difference.
JappyBabes

Rewben2 wrote:

Except the ranking system is actually about combo - You can get 50's on every single note but fc and beat someone who got 90%+ with misses, because its so aim dependant.
Except that doesn't happen. Please keep your points at least realistic.
Rewben2

JappyBabes wrote:

Rewben2 wrote:

Except the ranking system is actually about combo - You can get 50's on every single note but fc and beat someone who got 90%+ with misses, because its so aim dependant.
Except that doesn't happen. Please keep your points at least realistic.
I know, I was just exaggerating the importance of combo. Although it was definitely unrealistic.
Topic Starter
Pelaaja_X

Rewben2 wrote:

Pelaaja_X wrote:

(...) Remember: this game is about MUSIC, and real musicians don't calculate combos at all. (...)
(...) Your "real musician" analogy doesn't apply at all... There's no such thing as "combo" in music or 300's/100's. In real music (at least if you were playing an instrument) it would actually be about playing all the correct notes in time/in tune. You can't just skip notes randomly. (...)
Of course I know osu! is not about real music, that was not I meant.

You said that one can't skip notes randomly while playing an instrument. Well, of course not on purpose. But I wouldn't say that if you miss a note while playing instrument, it would spoil the whole song; mostly no one even hears it. Everybody makes mistakes, even the best musicians. Osu! instead is like if it was made by those perfectionists who always start over after one...

My reasoning skills aren't the best, but you're still getting my point, aren't you?
Gretsch
You could always put a cap on max combo like at 300 notes or something so that the multiplier didn't get out of hand to balloon scores. But for me I like the combo system because of the thrill you get toward the middle to end of a song when you know you can't miss.
YukinoDesuDesu
if you can't keep combo, play more
Rewben2

Pelaaja_X wrote:

Rewben2 wrote:

(...) Your "real musician" analogy doesn't apply at all... There's no such thing as "combo" in music or 300's/100's. In real music (at least if you were playing an instrument) it would actually be about playing all the correct notes in time/in tune. You can't just skip notes randomly. (...)
Of course I know osu! is not about real music, that was not I meant.

You said that one can't skip notes randomly while playing an instrument. Well, of course not on purpose. But I wouldn't say that if you miss a note while playing instrument, it would spoil the whole song; mostly no one even hears it. Everybody makes mistakes, even the best musicians. Osu! instead is like if it was made by those perfectionists who always start over after one...

My reasoning skills aren't the best, but you're still getting my point, aren't you?
If music is too difficult for you to play that you are missing notes, you shouldn't be playing it. For stringed instruments such as violin, if you miss a note your bow will end up going in the opposite direction of other people you are playing with (if you go up-down-up-down and suddenly miss one, you'll end up being on a different stroke than the other people you're playing with. This is extremely noticeable) although you can cover this up by going in the same direction twice. Just an example of where missing a note isn't as simple as just "Oh damn I missed one, let's continue" like you could on a piano.

I would say the "best musicians" make far less mistakes in terms of missing/skipping notes than the top osu! players make in terms of missing beats. Most people don't fc a song every single play (unless you are playing songs well below your skill level) or even majority of plays, most plays are spent retrying songs.

If you want to talk about people who retry songs over and over for the fc, then the musician equivalent would be recording yourself playing a song for something. People would definitely keep retrying that until they get the song right.
Soulg
osu! is not a musical instrument, you are using the music made by other people as an aid for your gameplay, not making music with your gameplay.
Weed
combo breaker
GoldenWolf

bewaredrev wrote:

combo breaker
congrats for making the most useless post in this thread



@Pelaaja_X : You didn't understand what this game is about.
It's about clicking circles on the screen, and you have to move a cursor in order to reach the circles => Aim-based game. Combo is important because the core of the game is the aim, not accuracy.
S o h
It's... pretty dumb to discuss if aim or accuracy is more "important" or more of a "core" of the gameplay...
The amount of skill required for either one is completely different by each map.

I do believe combo multiplier is pretty broken at its current state. Like it was mentioned earlier, a run with ONE miss, can have completely different scores depending on which point of the song the combo was broken. If it was the first note or the last note, it would be the equivalent of getting a score with one less note. However, if you miss in the middle of the song, your score suffers a lot. Accuracy also starts to matter a lot more later in the song, because a 100 done in the beginning of the song with a small combo count has a completely different score worth than a 100 done near the end of the song, when the combo is a lot higher.

You really can't defend this flaw.

Thankfully, ppv2 doesn't take score or rank into count at all anymore. A tiny combo break is nearly un-punishable.
nrl
The system is what the system is. Rather than worrying about how the system reacts under current tournament conditions, why don't we change tournament conditions to better represent the players' performance under the given system?

Pelaaja_X wrote:

Remember: this game is about MUSIC, and real musicians don't calculate combos at all.
Objectively false. Music is about expression, games are about massaging a score system.
Illkryn
If somebody can FC a song with nearly all 50's and 100's without using an offset, they deserve their incoming C rank more than those chumps getting 1 miss and an A rank. That shit is hard to do man, how do you even be inaccurate without an offset?

Also if you're capable of doing a song with 1 miss, you can probably do it again without the miss since more than likely it was a silly miss that you can correct, so who cares?
yoyomster

Illkryn wrote:

If somebody can FC a song with nearly all 50's and 100's without using an offset, they deserve their incoming C rank more than those chumps getting 1 miss and an A rank. That shit is hard to do man, how do you even be inaccurate without an offset?
Can you explain what you mean by "without using an offset"?
Rewben2

yoyomster wrote:

Illkryn wrote:

If somebody can FC a song with nearly all 50's and 100's without using an offset, they deserve their incoming C rank more than those chumps getting 1 miss and an A rank. That shit is hard to do man, how do you even be inaccurate without an offset?
Can you explain what you mean by "without using an offset"?
An offset makes it you so you have to click earlier/later than normal, normally people tweak this because of hardware delays. If you tweaked it a lot you would be getting 100's/50's from playing a song accurately because it registers the clicks at a different time than when you are inputting them.
yoyomster

Rewben2 wrote:

An offset makes it you so you have to click earlier/later than normal, normally people tweak this because of hardware delays. If you tweaked it a lot you would be getting 100's/50's from playing a song accurately because it registers the clicks at a different time than when you are inputting them.
I see. So playing without one would just be the same as using an offset of 0ms. Thanks.
nooblet
Accuracy is definitely important, and everyone gets those 99.XX%'s with a half-assed combo (Most people like to put it tin their "HALL OF SHAME" or whatever name they prefer), but the combo is just a part of the game. If you really can't take it, then you should go make your own and see how many people complain about the rules of YOUR game. Everyone experiences combo breaks, you just have to deal with it somehow, whether that is through grinding or w/e. If you hate grinding (like me) just play through all your maps and hope you'll get a combo on one of them someday. If your accuracy really is 99.5% on something, it'll happen eventually. I usually play through (the whole song) maps once or twice and if it doesn't come it doesn't, w/e.

Maintaining combo, on the other hand, is a different skill. One can consider it even harder than getting high accuracy, because it requires flexibility. Any high-ranked player can press buttons with their left hand pretty much mechanically, the difficult part about osu is the right, or aiming hand (opposite for peppy and lefties :) ) (Yes I know streams take a ton of grinding) This is the more "random" factor, as fast jumps almost always have a luck factor. I'll exemplify my point with OWC 2013, in which I'm sure everyone sees how Rucker performs. (relatively) Low accuracy, with (almost always) FC, carrying the matches where SW drops combo. Sure SW is arguably the better player, with higher accuracy, but consistency is also important in the game. The ability to purposefully hit circles earlier/later in order to guarantee every hit in a beatmap is much more difficult than pressing your left hand with little inconsistency (game-relative).

Getting 100's and 50's accidentally is just natural error I'm not saying these are skillful. Purposefully doing so is what takes skill, and is highly rewarded in this game. One may have to sacrifice more notes (perhaps say 3x 100's) in order to guarantee a difficult part, while skipping the note completely could just easily guarantee 2x300 and 1x0. Examples are everywhere, take any fast screen-wide zigzag jump pattern. Getting 100's on all of them is much harder than skipping half of them, yet you get 30% for hitting and 50% for skipping.

In any case, I agree with GoldenWolf's post. Accuracy is important AFTER you learn to combo your stuff. Perhaps you could play some more Multiplayer?
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