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[Archived] "Only allow changes to local offset in first 10 seconds"

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Topic Starter
plaird
I have to type more... how tedious...

theowest wrote:

It shouldn't be ranked if it has the wrong bpm. Timing the correct BPM is one of the easiest things to do while making your map, unless there are more than one.
Many older maps have the wrong BPM.
Even on new maps you may feel that you've incorrectly adjusted the offset and want to change it back but don't want to start over...

merchat7 wrote:

Timing shouldn't be off in the first place if you are talking about ranked beatmaps. Some of the old ones may have wrong timings, but no new ranked one should have timing problems and they are normally unranked fast if problems are found. Old beatmaps do not get unranked since they are so old and too many scores would be wipe.

If you can give some examples of some recently ranked beatmaps where timing are off, please list them.

From what I've read in an other thread, it's done like this so people cannot cheat in spinners.
By timing... do you mean BPM or offset?
It would be more accurate to say that there are no serious timing problems, not that there are no problems at all. To believe that the correct offset for every recent map is 0ms would be naive, but their BPMs are generally fine. It is common for me to feel that a map needs +/-5 or sometimes 10ms--at least in taiko mode I feel this way, I do not know if the timing is less strict in osu--and not to sound conceited, but given my accuracy I trust my instincts more than those of most others...

If the problem is only cheating with spinners then it only needs to be unchangeable near spinners, not everywhere.
merchat7

Wiki wrote:

Your map must be perfectly timed. This means that your BPM and offset are spot-on, sliders end when they should, notes are generally following a recognizable rhythm (such as the lyrics or drums) which is comprehensible by a player, and that there are no unsnapped notes (you can check this by running AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) in the editor).
If you have a problem with a timing of a beatmap (bpm or offset), contact a BAT. They'll probably verify with some people and change if necessary.

If they do not agree with you, then you are most likely wrong, while I'm aware that not everyone can tell the difference between 5-10 offset off, I know that there are people who can and some are in the BAT/MAT team.

So again, there is no need for this as any timing problem is a big problem and should be immediately reported to the appropriate people.
Wishy
There are several ranked maps that have wrong timing. I thought most were fine and they are, indeed, but still there are plenty of those that have several timing lines, get ranked, then someone finds out timing is off and you can't fix it.
TicClick
It's all fun and games until you meet something like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/1231. You also do know that Beatmap Approval Team can't fix incorrectly set BPM.
lolcubes
There are way too many wrongly timed maps with wrong bpms. Quoting the rules and stating the obvious that all ranked maps should have perfect timing or shouldn't be ranked in the first place will not fix the problem. I have no idea why this change was made cause this only makes things really awkward on such maps.
kriers
I was instantly punished by this new restriction. SO MANY maps have issues on offset and I used to chart all of these changes so I could change offset during gameplay for the really hardcore accuracy scores :(
merchat7

lolcubes wrote:

There are way too many wrongly timed maps with wrong bpms.
There is a big problem then.
xsrsbsns

kriers wrote:

I was instantly punished by this new restriction. SO MANY maps have issues on offset and I used to chart all of these changes so I could change offset during gameplay for the really hardcore accuracy scores :(
Exactly this.
peppy
Please report incorrectly timed maps and we will fix them. This has always been the case.
kriers

peppy wrote:

Please report incorrectly timed maps and we will fix them. This has always been the case.
Let me just try and put things clear as to why I feel very unfairly treated right now:

Currently there are so many mistimed maps, even among the newer maps. This can be a due to damaged mp3s or mistiming that wasn't noticed by moderators when the mapset got ranked. This happens a lot, sadly. In most cases these irregularities in offset are only 2-10 ms, but that's very noticeable for players looking to get high accuracy on OD10. This is why we seek to change offset whenever we see the need for it, and usually we do that in the breaks where often the map lacks a new timeline to get the correct offset for that section.

The amount of maps out there with similar mistakes are huge and although we who need to change offset are in a minority, we are also the few players with the level of accuracy to actually notice. Us few can't report hundreds of issues like this. It's unfair and it will never be done this way simply because it's too much effort. In the end, us losing our ability to adjust mistakes for ourselves, is all there is to it in this change.
peppy
Please restart the map and change at the beginning, and also report the issues in the map thread or to a BAT directly. If there are many ranked maps like this, we need to get started fixing 'em. Local offsets are not the solution.
kriers

peppy wrote:

Please restart the map and change at the beginning.
I think you misunderstand my point. We often do several changes during one map where offset fleets back and forth. We want the ability to adjust to this again.

If all we can do is set offset from the beginning, we will be forced to play with that offset, even when it goes off balance later on in a map.
peppy
Please report in the map thread of to a BAT. Rather than each player fixing this, they should be fixed in the beatmaps.
lolcubes

peppy wrote:

Please report incorrectly timed maps and we will fix them. This has always been the case.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/34083
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/15706

2 I remember on the fly where offset change mid map is sort of required because the incorrect BPMs make the maps go too slow/fast in such a manner than the difference between offset at the start and the end of the map is somewhere in 20ms range. With very high OD (hard rock), even OD8 nomod @2nd one they are nearly impossible to SS under normal means (without changing the offset while playing).
Having a static offset fix will not fix these issues.

peppy wrote:

Please report in the map thread of to a BAT. Rather than each player fixing this, they should be fixed in the beatmaps.
We can't fix bad BPMs though. :(
kriers

lolcubes wrote:

We can't fix bad BPMs though. :(
We can still adjust by adding local offset. Or that was the case before.
peppy
We can fix bad BPMs. It just takes a bit more effort. If enough are reported I will make sure the team looks into them.
MillhioreF
I'll just toss in a couple more for now.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/977
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/43
Topic Starter
plaird

peppy wrote:

Please report in the map thread of to a BAT. Rather than each player fixing this, they should be fixed in the beatmaps.
It cannot be both?
Certainly errors should be fixed, but even then not everyone will agree on the same timing. If you find that something feels wrong, others may not agree. If something now feels right, others may feel that it is now wrong. And if you cannot convince anybody, there's nothing that you can do. The ability to avoid such things by making your own decisions about what feels right was an appealing aspect of the game.
TheVileOne
If peppy says BATs can fix bad BPMs, then you have permission to fix bad BPMs. It would take a map update, but I'm not sure if updating would revert it to the latest version. That was an issue awhile ago.
Cyclone
I may try starting to look at ranked maps with bad offsets again. I started a thread like 2 years ago or something but never really did anything. To my knowledge, BPM fixes will require that all scores are wiped, a sensitive issue with older maps. (I'm looking at you bad apple.)

Until I get off my lazy ass and make something organized, feel free to PM me maps to look at.
merchat7
I would presume it would work like online offset, but after a certain point in the map, there will be a trigger which automatically adjust offset?

For example, a beatmap have a wrong offset (need -10) and a wrong bpm (+10 off at end). Song length is 2 minute.

So you would -10 the first red line and then after 1 min, +5 to offset and then 2min +5 offset. No unranking/updating is necessary and as people were using local offset like this anyway, it's more or less already in the game.

I was not aware people weren't reporting timing issues, I always see on badly timed beatmap people writing in the beatmap thread about it. I guess there should be an easier way like a button after you finish a beatmap to report this. Maybe it'll motivate more people to report timing issues.

@plaird
Timing is an objective thing. It's either right or wrong. I guess it's fine if people prefer to adjust it themselves through, but this is not up for me to decide.
Cyclone
A system like this is not in place, but that doesn't mean it can't be made. We'll have to see what peppy says to that.
TheVileOne
Why will it cause a score wipe? It does not affect objects and max score will not change. Old replays may be out of sync, but that's not a terrible issue.
Sure
I don't care about miss timed beatmaps. Just I can't adjust offset during testing in the middle of the map, it's really annoying.
Restore it please peppy
Sonnyc

ykcarrot wrote:

I don't care about miss timed beatmaps. Just I can't adjust offset during testing in the middle of the map, it's really annoying.
Restore it please peppy
I thought this was my PC's fault :(
MMzz

TheVileOne wrote:

If peppy says BATs can fix bad BPMs, then you have permission to fix bad BPMs. It would take a map update, but I'm not sure if updating would revert it to the latest version. That was an issue awhile ago.
Not every BAT can force update beatmaps.

Or noone never told me how to do so.

If the ability is ever granted to the BAT I will gladly fix timing issues.
peppy
If enough are reported I will make sure BATs are able to fix this. I will add this functionality back during test mode; that is fine.
statementreply

peppy wrote:

Please restart the map and change at the beginning, and also report the issues in the map thread or to a BAT directly. If there are many ranked maps like this, we need to get started fixing 'em. Local offsets are not the solution.
I believe there're at least 20% out of all ranked maps that are off by >±5ms. I can help to make a tool to automatically detect the timing of most single-BPM songs with reasonable accuracy and compare against the beatmap (and also a list of songs it can't time) if you wish :P running it on all ranked beatmaps should take less than one day.
lolcubes
Fixing offsets is easy and if the offset is bad we usually fix it already (if reported).
But yeah as I stated in my previous post, there are multibpm maps with different offsets and maps with wrong BPM which I guess need some waiting now for peppy to implement the possibility to fix BPMs as well.

I wonder how would this look like, cause if it's something like "online offset at" such things could effectively fix a lot of problems without a need to unrank & wipe scores.
Wishy
No wiping scores because of bad modding please.
statementreply

lolcubes wrote:

Fixing offsets is easy and if the offset is bad we usually fix it already (if reported).
But yeah as I stated in my previous post, there are multibpm maps with different offsets and maps with wrong BPM which I guess need some waiting now for peppy to implement the possibility to fix BPMs as well.

I wonder how would this look like, cause if it's something like "online offset at" such things could effectively fix a lot of problems without a need to unrank & wipe scores.
Starting from xxxxxx ms, offset timing by +/- yy ms and skew timing by +/- zzz ppm
Topic Starter
plaird

merchat7 wrote:

@plaird
Timing is an objective thing. It's either right or wrong. I guess it's fine if people prefer to adjust it themselves through, but this is not up for me to decide.
Timing is objective but perception of it is subjective. The point is not that a person should be able to use their subjective perceived timing because they do not agree with an objectively correct timing, it is that the "objectively correct" timing may not be objectively correct because it is merely what another person subjectively perceived to be correct, hence why discrepancies exist at all.

This game is not like other rhythm games where all players use the same hardware and play songs timed by the same people, so I felt that the ability for players to do what felt correct to them was a good thing. But if human error were to be removed from the process then I won't really care.
TheVileOne
This thread seems like a Feature Request to me, so my response will be feature oriented.

Perhaps out of sync replays might not be the best thing actually. I certainly wouldn't want my old replay completely ruined because the BPM was changed. I also wouldn't want the scores wiped. Perhaps there would be a way that wouldn't affect existing saved replays. I think it might be worth including such a feature sometime in the distant future.

I could be wrong, but aren't the replays using the actual beatmap's object data? If you save a local replay and then change the where the objects are in the song, will that not affect how the objects appear in the replay? I haven't tested this, and plan to when I am in a position to test. If this is the case, wouldn't this make replays potentially unstable, and could be changed regardless if the user saved the replay. If this is not the case, then that means object data is saved on a per replay level. I don't see it being too difficult to add code that decides whether to overwrite or keep existing replay object data.

My Idea

A map that has BPM updated creates a replay file that goes in the beatmap folder or whereever it needs to go. Upon map update, it will inform the users that BPM has changed, and that old replays will need to use replay file to stay in sync. Use whatever method works best to distribute said replay file. Old replay formats will need to use the replay file, while newer recorded replays will not require the replay file. This could probably be done with the design of a shiny new replay format entirely or just a modified one that allows this.

The replay file will in no way affect score submission and is only used for older already processed replays.

A lot of text trying to say: Changes to replay data should be handled in a stable way, if we are going to prevent score wiping.
MillhioreF

TheVileOne wrote:

If you save a local replay and then change the where the objects are in the song, will that not affect how the objects appear in the replay?
Replays contain an md5 hash of the .osu file they were played on. If the .osu is modified in any way, then the replay and score won't show up on the modified map.
lolcubes
Online offsets don't affect the replays themselves directly I believe, so if such things can be implemented online (the bpm fix, or the "offset at" idea I described before), then you wouldn't need a score wipe, nor will the replays go out of sync.
peppy
If "20% of maps are mistimed", then please list these 20%. Or don't make up false statistics.
statementreply
20 most recently ranked beatmaps:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/72324 too early
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/73769 either bpm off or needs multiple sections
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/58787 a bit late
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46862 too early
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/68717 a bit early
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/63233 bpm a bit fast
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/50453 too early (already fixed online)
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/59830 bpm a bit slow, offset too late on main timing section
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70744 a bit late
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/72805 a bit early
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/60113 a bit early
lolcubes
Small offset variations under 10ms are rankable.
As I said before, maps with bad offsets don't need to be reported here. Only if they have bad multi BPMs or just wrong BPMs. We can fix offsets already and the local offset already fixes the issue if the player wants to use it.
Sure

statementreply wrote:

20 most recently ranked beatmaps:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/73769 either bpm off or needs multiple sections
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/63233 bpm a bit fast
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/59830 bpm a bit slow, offset too late on main timing section
Nah.. Are you sure about that BPM is wrong? I don't know how accurate you are, but I don't see any problem on those.
statementreply

ykcarrot wrote:

Nah.. Are you sure about that BPM is wrong? I don't know how accurate you are, but I don't see any problem on those.

statementreply wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/73769 either bpm off or needs multiple sections
This one is off, but I'm not quite sure about the nature of off-timing

statementreply wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/63233 bpm a bit fast
~131.996 i.e. original bpm gradually getting ~6ms early throughout the song

statementreply wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/59830 bpm a bit slow, offset too late on main timing section
~120.003 i.e. original bpm gradually getting ~6ms late throughout the song
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