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Mouse user‘s ultimate weakness! Never a one to one mapping!

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Topic Starter
Jawing
Mouse acceleration. I have sure this has been discussed many times....although this time it is a completely different kind of acceleration.

First let me make it clear that it is possible to get rid of linear acceleration in X and Y (either negative or positive). You can turn off enhance cursor precision in windows and do a bunch of other stuff like using http://donewmouseaccel.blogspot.ca/2010/03/markc-windows-7-mouse-acceleration-fix.html.

In the end it is impossible to get rid of angular acceleration bug. For example, if you put your mouse cursor in the center of your screen and close your eyes. Spin your mouse in place, either clockwise or counter-clockwise. By spinning clockwise, your mouse will move towards the bottom left after spinning around 100 times and the opposite for counter-clockwise.

Therefore mouse user can never be 100% accurate because it will never have a 1:1 mapping of the mouse pad to the computer screen.

Try and see for yourself ;)

Unlike mouse user. tablet user's tablet area have a 1:1 mapping of their computer screen.

Many of you should have noticed that most user who have achieved top ranks on Jumpy maps that are Insanely Jumpy are usually tablet users.

I hope, if any of you have a solution to solve this kind of acceleration is a saviour towards every mouse user!
MillhioreF
Except it doesn't really matter all that much. Angular acceleration is completely negligible and isn't even used in gameplay. I don't know of anyone who has their screen mapped to their mousepad either, since you can lift and move the mouse without moving the cursor. Playing with mouse isn't about knowing where on the mousepad your mouse is, it's about how much of a movement to the next note you need to make.
Pacemaker
so tl;dr: Your mousepad doesn't work like a tablet.

Damn, that sure is the discovery of the year man!
silmarilen
tl;dr this has been discussed before and confirmed
winber1
i thought certain mice didn't do this, and certain ones did, depending on the quality.

either way... cool story bro. saved my life there.
lolcubes

Syboooo wrote:

Spin your mouse in place, either clockwise or counter-clockwise. By spinning clockwise, your mouse will move towards the bottom left after spinning around 100 times and the opposite for counter-clockwise.
Either my muscle memory compensates for this already or you just have a really bad mouse. :v
ct_warrior
I believe that the Minoix Naos 5000 doesn't have this problem. Ask kriers. :3
Soly
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Topic Starter
Jawing

MillhioreF wrote:

Except it doesn't really matter all that much. Angular acceleration is completely negligible and isn't even used in gameplay.
Then how would it be negligible if you've tried spinning your mouse in place...

MillhioreF wrote:

Playing with mouse isn't about knowing where on the mousepad your mouse is, it's about how much of a movement to the next note you need to make.
Your muscle memory is built upon a precise mapping of your cursor movement on your mouse pad. If your cursor hit a note a on a Jumpy map just barely on the edge...you brain will continue to think that it actually hit the note on the centre.

After you notice the slight difference, your mind will adjust your muscles to a newer position that fit the original mapping.
It takes time to adjust, and without adjusting you could miss your next note...

winber1 wrote:

i thought certain mice didn't do this, and certain ones did, depending on the quality.

either way... cool story bro. saved my life there.
Your mouse doesn't do this?


lolcubes wrote:

Syboooo wrote:

Spin your mouse in place, either clockwise or counter-clockwise. By spinning clockwise, your mouse will move towards the bottom left after spinning around 100 times and the opposite for counter-clockwise.
Either my muscle memory compensates for this already or you just have a really bad mouse. :v
Did you close your eyes while spinning? (which negates muscle memory) and I don't believe I have a bad mouse (kinzu v2)
blissfulyoshi
I don't know how you play, but notes are big enough that doing mouse jumps from muscle memory is fine. I am going to side with the group saying you have a bad mouse since there are still quite a few mouse users in the top 1000.
MillhioreF
Even if what you're saying is true, which I don't doubt, it doesn't make a significant enough difference to affect gameplay except maybe CS9 or CS10. Mouse position variance is always slightly inaccurate anyway because of human error, and any precision loss from angled acceleration is negligible compared to human accuracy variance. The only situation where this could feasibly be a big problem is if I created a robot to move the mouse for me.
lolcubes

Syboooo wrote:

Did you close your eyes while spinning? (which negates muscle memory) and I don't believe I have a bad mouse (kinzu v2)
I did. I didn't do 100 spins but I did like 40 or something, the cursor was still right where it was before. I spin really small circles though.
Moway

Syboooo wrote:

lolcubes wrote:

Either my muscle memory compensates for this already or you just have a really bad mouse. :v
Did you close your eyes while spinning? (which negates muscle memory) and I don't believe I have a bad mouse (kinzu v2)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the Kinzu has unremovable mouse accleration.
Bweh
This thread makes it seem as if tablets have a significant and unsurpassed advantage over mouses. Which they don't.
RaneFire
Simplest analogy to describe the problem that you think is technical error and not human error:
Draw a straight line with your mouse. Your hand moves in an arc.

Relative positioning is in essence the ultimate weakness, but the major component in this weakness is the "4th dimension" - TIME.

It is ONLY a problem when the user plays a map that goes on for too long without breaks and involves too much movement in this duration... and "too long" differs from person to person as you get better at subconsciously handling the relative positioning errors. But there is a limit, even for the best.

Discussed many times - already agreed upon - but very few maps (always top tier skill level) cause a problem.

And yes a lot of mice have sensors that cause random amounts of acceleration, in fact every mouse does this to some degree, even the g400 - though it is measured as low as 0.5% variance, which is negligible.

Krier's uses the Mionix Naos 5000 which uses the Avago ADNS 9500 laser sensor and has up to a 10% variance in acceleration caused by mouse firmware, but he plays fine with it. It is more about adaptation than anything else.

And I jump better with a mouse than I do with a tablet for some odd reason! Mesita and other mouse players express the same opinion.
Practice =/= Theory.
SteRRuM

RaneFire wrote:

Simplest analogy to describe the problem that you think is technical error and not human error:
Draw a straight line with your mouse. Your hand moves in an arc.

Relative positioning is in essence the ultimate weakness, but the major component in this weakness is the "4th dimension" - TIME.

It is ONLY a problem when the user plays a map that goes on for too long without breaks and involves too much movement in this duration... and "too long" differs from person to person as you get better at subconsciously handling the relative positioning errors. But there is a limit, even for the best.

Discussed many times - already agreed upon - but very few maps (always top tier skill level) cause a problem.

And yes a lot of mice have sensors that cause random amounts of acceleration, in fact every mouse does this to some degree, even the g400 - though it is measured as low as 0.5% variance, which is negligible.

Krier's uses the Mionix Naos 5000 which uses the Avago ADNS 9500 laser sensor and has up to a 10% variance in acceleration caused by mouse firmware, but he plays fine with it. It is more about adaptation than anything else.

And I jump better with a mouse than I do with a tablet for some odd reason! Mesita and other mouse players express the same opinion.
Practice =/= Theory.
So much true, tho this problem appears for me only if there's at least 3min long map without breaks and spinners, which happens very rarely
bmin11
This often has been an issue for me for longer maps. Whenever I get a break, I always pause and make sure I re-position my mouse again.

EDIT:

SteRRuM wrote:

tho this problem appears for me only if there's at least 3min long map without breaks and spinners, which happens very rarely
Basically this
Topic Starter
Jawing
I believe what we have discussed so far. It clearly shows that tablet users aren't vulnerable to hardware errors. :(
buny
I hate when people exaggerate the disadvantage of a mouse.

Tablets ARE vulnerable to a lot of errors, making such a statement clearly proves you do not own a tablet.

edit: When I bought a new cheap mouse, it didn't have drifting (although it progressively got worse over the next few months)
silmarilen
lets bring these awesome paint pictures back we had in the last thread about this
Vish024
Rubbish.

As I've said before it's a scientifically proven fact that mouse players have larger testicles than those that use tablet, buny will back me up on this one. That's all that matters, not all this tosh.
Topic Starter
Jawing
Ok guys the point about this thread is not to discuss "how a tablet is better than a mouse or vice versa" I seriously do not want to see how people are stating things from another thread.

The point is to discuss or potentially find a solution to the hardware errors in a mouse. Don't you think it is at least 1% relevant to a mouse player's gameplay when it comes to hardware acceleration?

buny wrote:

Tablets ARE vulnerable to a lot of errors, making such a statement clearly proves you do not own a tablet.
What kind of errors do Tablets have? >> My statement was pointing towards this question.
RaneFire

Syboooo wrote:

buny wrote:

Tablets ARE vulnerable to a lot of errors, making such a statement clearly proves you do not own a tablet.
What kind of errors do Tablets have? >> My statement was pointing towards this question.
Since the most popular tablet is wacom etc...

The position of the cursor is determined via EMR (Electro-magnetic Resonance)... pinpointed by a cicruit NOT at the tip of the pen. This means that when you change the angle of the pen, the cursor moves, even if the tip is in the same place. Easy to adapt to though, I don't find it a problem.

Some people can't hover (keep the pen tip within 3mm of the tablet at all times - the actual circuit is about 10mm away from the surface). They suffer frequent disconnects between pen and tablet and miss notes.

If your tablet came with a cable that is too short, please buy a good quality SHORT (signal degradation can occur over long lengths, as well as reducing the activation distance between pen and tablet) male-A to female-A extension cable instead of plugging it into a USB hub, using a hub causes input delay and the tracking frequency (normally 125hz) becomes pretty random. (Applies to mice too but what the heck.)

These are errors that I know of, but they aren't as bad as they sound.
Bweh
Also, Wacom tablet drivers have always been dysfunctional for me (and a lot of people, judging from the articles and threads I've read when troubleshooting) since they seem to stop running after a while during start up and need to be reinstalled. There's also accidentally pressing the pen buttons, which count as clicking and can mess up jumps and snapping, although you can disable that from the properties window. The only other thing I can name is the lack of stability as compared to mouses; which can be particuarly detrimental during a tense moment.
bwross

Syboooo wrote:

lolcubes wrote:

Either my muscle memory compensates for this already or you just have a really bad mouse. :v
Did you close your eyes while spinning? (which negates muscle memory) and I don't believe I have a bad mouse (kinzu v2)
Actually, when you close your eyes, only muscle memory remains. What's negated is hand-eye co-ordination, which is what compensates for any sort of drift.
buny

LaVolpe024 wrote:

Rubbish.

As I've said before it's a scientifically proven fact that mouse players have larger testicles than those that use tablet, buny will back me up on this one. That's all that matters, not all this tosh.
Yes and remember to use c/v guise
she_old
Mouse is masterrace, please increase bonus for mouse users too because of the great disadvantages they have, obviously tablets don't have any disadvantages and instantly make you cookiezi.
/sarcasm
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