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pp: new ranking system

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maal

peppy wrote:

Emaal wrote:

I pass Insane on first try, most of the times; whereas one of my friends, whom has 4,664, rarely survives insane's! He's farming on Easy/Normal; I honestly wouldn't call this skills. Sure, he has a few number 1's BUT, it's on Easy and whatnot.

This is merely feedback; not a suggestion or criticism.
Your friend has hidden ranks that you are overlooking. Making these more visible may come with the new ranking implementation (I am still weighing up the pros/cons of this). Also keep in mind he is still behind you by over 50 points. That is a lot.
This post once again. We're fucking equal now. Both at 4,728; seriously what the fuck.
Wishy
Just stop complaining Emaal, any automated system like this will be about farming and you can't do anything about it. You can be a god player, be able to clear Airman on DT (I know it's impossible), but that's not worth a thing. All you have to do is go farm top scores to raise your ???. This is in the end just another farmi based ranking system, not much like the last one but in the end it is not a very different thing.

That's what I think, guess we should wait for peppy to finish it and see how it works out, my suggestion again:

Ignore FL scores (except it's something like DT+FL or HR+FL), give ridiculously high values to top scores on popular maps where many top players appear, make Hidden scores worth shit, make normal no-mod scores on maps where there is a lot of mod playing worth shit too, HR should be worth tons more than Hidden, DT way more than HR, very high ranks (#10+ on popular maps) should be worth a ton. like really, high ranks on stuff like http://osu.ppy.sh/b/83968 or http://osu.ppy.sh/b/80515 should be worth gold. Of course getting #1 on FL+HD should be worth nothing, remember if you want to make a ranking system not based on grinding, you first got to make grinding mods worth crap, DT+HD is obviously harder than DT only, not because of grinding but because of map readability and note-snapping, same on HR, but HD alone or FL alone (same FL+HD) should be worth almost nothing, like yeah go get some fame having #1, but don't get into the ranks higher than other guys that actually got the skill to DT that thing in a few plays when it took you hundreds to FL it (and yet you are completely incapable of doing DT).
endlessHorizon
inb4 recalculating
Salvage
I actually think this ranking is the most accurate we can ever get to, the ladder system would suck asses since is the shittiest way to organize a ranking specially in a game like this.


About the suggestions i pretty much disagree with all of them, Fl should be taken in mind the same way it does in the other system, i think it requieres a lot of skill, pretty much like DT (I'm stating this as true i don't even need to argue this with you thx), the only problem about this is that there will be the need of dealing more heavily with cheaters cause it can screw the top completelly.

About Hidden i think is good as it is since is not an Easy mod at all, (again i won't even discuss this) .. HR is good worthing what it does, HR HD shouldn't worth more than DT or FL (and with that i mean much more, i know it does but just a little so whatever), then we go back to FL and HD so there we go, it will never happen cause it's just not a good idea so repeating it over and over will not change how crappy it is.


About the farming to get high rank it will allways be capped on better players than you cause they will clearly get best scores, for example a sick HR HD on a known map will just own your farming if you can't do insane scores too so the farming is not as heavy as in the other Ranking (which i repeat i hope it doesn't get erased since i like that too), but i'm pretty happy with this ranking so far.
Wishy
Ladder is the best system possible on any skill-based game, like it or not, since you get ranked based on your actual plays without taking into account any kind of grinding@specific maps.

No, FL requires extreme grinding on a certain map to be able to get FC. DT requires pure skill to get the FC. If you can FL FC some map it does not mean necessarily that you will be able to FC DT, meanwhile yeah, if you DT some map it does mean you can FL FC (w/o DT) with enough plays. Or you think Mesita can FC Gold Dust on DT? Lol.

HR should be worth more than HD because of the simple fact that it requires a better aim, faster reaction and higher accuracy. Hidden does nothing but make snapping a little harder and some notes hard to see but still readable if you're good enough (and listen to the song...). I'm saying that HD scores should be worth shit because yeah dude, Flute should be fucking #1 on Deep Space, but he isn't because HD is worth the same than HR that is clearly way harder. But since that won't be changed...

About that last thing, wrong, many players just play to get some sick scores on maps they like (examples: TTTL, Reisen Udongein) and therefore you don't see them around getting random top scores on any random map they can find, that doesn't mean they are bad they are still elite players.
Salvage
No arguing, i'm right you're wrong deal with it.
Neruell
Cookiezi is #1 now, ranking works perfectly.
CXu
Your hard earned skills to DT maps came from grinding countless of hours of osu! After grinding a map on FL, you aquire the skill to FC said map with FL. After grinding say 140bpm maps in general with DT, you aquire the skill to FC maps at 140bpm with DT. In the end it's all about how much time you put into getting that skill \o\
Wishy
Guess getting those few points WW needs to get #1 should take a life-time since he isn't even close to him.
xsrsbsns
Ladder system is just bad for osu, a rhythm game. No one's gonna bother, it'll suck not having to play the songs you like, at your own pace, using the mods you like (read: solo play).

Also why do we need automated rankings to tell us 100% who the best player is again?
Deal with it. Judge by watching replays and spectating.

tl;dr this is as accurate as it gets.
Wishy

CXu wrote:

Your hard earned skills to DT maps came from grinding countless of hours of osu! After grinding a map on FL, you aquire the skill to FC said map with FL. After grinding say 140bpm maps in general with DT, you aquire the skill to FC maps at 140bpm with DT. In the end it's all about how much time you put into getting that skill \o\
You still don't get it.

Pick any pro player that can do super DTs. Ask him to FL some map he DT'd, they gonna be able to get it in enough plays.
Pick any pro player that can do super FLs. Ask him to DT some map he FL'd, they won't be able to DT it probably. Unless it's a stupid low BPM map that everyone can DT FC in a single play... then fuck you go do DT FL instead of FL HD SS lol.

With FL you need to put an enormous amount of time for each map, when you are a skillful player you don't need to put several hours on doing DT FC on some hard map (if it's even doable). If you want to talk about skill, then leave FL out of discussions because that "skill" is called grinding, just as you play some MMO and kill the same stupid mobs for days, that doesn't mean you're pro it just means you got asian patience to do the same thing eternally.
thelewa
Well I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't be able to FL jumpy maps even if I tried them a hundred thousand times.

I just lack the skill in FL to do that.
GladiOol

ragelewa wrote:

Well I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't be able to FL jumpy maps even if I tried them a hundred thousand times.

I just lack the skill in FL to do that.
pretty much this.

heck, I couldn't even FC an ''easy'' insane map if FL is on. No matter how many times I would play it.
Memorising a map is skill imo.

ninja'd salvage by 1 second. fuck yeah <3
Salvage
^
^

:D




EDIT: DAMN IT GLADI
GladiOol
lewa already #11

seriously this guy will be #1 shortly \:D/
thelewa
I will pierce the heavens
Wishy
It's all about memorizing it, you need to play it hundreds of times. Remember how Lyby FC'd masterpiece? It took him like a week of playing that map during hours and hours, it even takes Mesita thousands of plays to do his FL scores lol, and some of them like Gold Dust took him MONTHS.

Have you played a jumpy map with FL 200 times and you still can't do it at all?
silmarilen
gladi #110 big big yeah!
XGeneral2000

ragelewa wrote:

Well I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't be able to FL jumpy maps even if I tried them a hundred thousand times.

I just lack the skill in FL to do that.
Maybe you could put stickers on your screen, lol.

But anyway, this ranking will probably be the best we'll ever get. Unless peppy hires the people in lunatic's top 20 video to fly around the world and personally inspect every player to assign him/her a rank, we're never going to get a true measure of skill. Skill is too subjective. It's too hard to put a player who can FC 180 bpm maps on DT and another player who can SS OD8 maps on HR + HD or something on the same scale. As long as the ranking is done by a formula, someone's gonna be able to exploit it. There will be good players with low rank and farmers with high rank, and everyone is going to complain. Besides, everyone knows the top players, anyway, and what they can do.

DT vs FL gogogo
Spectator
Now I'm #2 on CTB...

o.o
CXu
So how many times did said pro players play 140bpm maps with DT? I'm not saying that particular map he did in 1 or 2 plays, I'm talking about the progress of getting to that point of skillevel. It's probably a whole amount more than the amount of plays that went into an FL score.

I'm just saying that if a player can FC a 140bpm map with DT in a few tries, it's "essentially" the same as a player that can FC a map with FL in a few times, because they're both a skill aquired after a certain amount of grinding.

Well, that's how I see it anyway.
chonicle
The relationship between FL and DT:
Let's use | as one practice(one playcount) on one map, but fail to FC. Let's use x as one success FC on one map.

FL:
||||||||||||||||||||||||||x (and start another 160 bpm map) |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||x (and start another) |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||x

DT:
||||(start on 120dt)||||(130)|||||||(140)|||||||||||||||||||(150)||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||(160 170) ||x(140dt)|||x(150dt)||||x(150dt)

As you can see, they both require time to get the desired rank. The difference is: FL needs time on each map, but when you practise enough on DT, you should be able to fc it pretty *efficiently*.

When you compare a DT player and FL player, DT player should have more #1-#10 than a FL player. And that is reflected in the ??? ranking pretty nicely. Remember azuraer is only #5 there.

Peppy has done a really nice job here. Once the map difficulty problem is solved, the ??? rank will become more reliable and normal hard #1 farmers will be gone.
eldnl

chonicle wrote:

The relationship between FL and DT:
Let's use | as one practice(one playcount) on one map, but fail to FC. Let's use x as one success FC on one map.

FL:
||||||||||||||||||||||||||x (and start another 160 bpm map) |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||x (and start another) |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||x

DT:
||||(start on 120dt)||||(130)|||||||(140)|||||||||||||||||||(150)||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||(160 170) ||x(140dt)|||x(150dt)||||x(150dt)

As you can see, they both require time to get the desired rank. The difference is: FL needs time on each map, but when you practise enough on DT, you should be able to fc it pretty *efficiently*.

When you compare a DT player and FL player, DT player should have more #1-#10 than a FL player. And that is reflected in the ??? ranking pretty nicely. Remember azuraer is only #5 there.

Peppy has done a really nice job here. Once the map difficulty problem is solved, the ??? rank will become more reliable and normal hard #1 farmers will be gone.
FL become easier with the time too
chonicle

eldnl wrote:

FL makes easier with the time too
This might be the case, but not that efficient compared to dt.
eldnl

chonicle wrote:

eldnl wrote:

FL makes easier with the time too
This might be the case, but not that efficient compared to dt.
yep
[Luanny]

JhowM wrote:

Nashmun wrote:

JhowM : Play mostly Normal/Hard diffs (std too)
I didn't even know I played normal diffs that much.
You didn't, actually you play only Lunatic and Insane afaik /slowpoke.png

As I can see, the taiko rank is way better now
and, idk but
maybe it could have a way to consider specific taiko maps > standard insanes~hards (?)

inb4 "there are some standard insane diffs harder than taiko specific" , ik ik
but, hey, it is taiko! Taiko specific could count more imho. Taiko diffs are made for taiko players and blablabla everyone already knows it
BUUUT approved diffs could count the same as taiko specific
just because what everyone knows: they are very hard, as hard as a taiko diffs imo (at least 70% of them).
Take Through The Fire and The Flames or Banned Forever as examples.

Haters gonna hate hm
Mismagius
Also, goddammit please don't start the "HR+HD and DT are the only mods that define skill FL sucks" bullcrap again. It's off-topic and it doesn't make any sense.
YodaSnipe
BD almost caught up to me! :P
haha5957
Like guys, people who get A's on the test aren't always the best at the subject. There are many cases that B students actually "teaching" the A students. Even in real life, there is no way to measure a true skill, or whatever it might be called.

If the ranking has very close relationship with the real rank, It is a good rank.

People talking about mods here doesnt seem to make sense for me, because, there might be slight problem about "ah!! why he is above me!!" or something like that, but the important thing is, current ranking already has preety much close relationship between rank and skill.

As we all know, we regard cookiezi is #1 player or osu. (well, not to mension about White Wolf's growing skills here, even with that, Cookiezi is still at least #2 at the moment). but the past(acutally, current overall) rank calls cookiezi #8 just because he didn't play osu! recently.

Also, If you think FL is easier then DT or the reverse, just farm your score that way. with higher rank, you will get higher ???'s for sure.
IF you regard FL a much easier mode to DT, why don't you farm your score that way?

I've never seen cookiezi playing FL, (on shoushitsu or symponic love, that is another case) while BinJip's most #1's are with FL.
Those two are just different; although we call cookiezi as the best player and he usually plays DT or HDHR, maybe he can't actually FL, (or he doesnt need it because he can easily DT or HDHR, OR HDDR or whatever without FL)and if someone puts extra effort on specific songs and get higher scores with FL, that is one thing too. and if someone gets many Insane #1~#6's with FL, that means he actually has skill about FL, (like, we would need +200 PC to FL it, but maybe he can do it in like 50P) and that should be included in the ranking too.

So I'm kind of person who saids "mods with same score multiplyer is basically the same".

Even Myself getting into #40, I use different mods. sometimes HRDT, sometimes only hidden, sometimes HDDT, sometimes HDHR..

well, if you think certain mode is easier to play, then farm the score that way.
Valentiino
Moelewa #9

The skills will pierce the heavens
Taiko_old
I don't see Nyan in top50 - taiko scores are wrong :D
[Luanny]

haha5957 wrote:

Also, If you think FL is easier then DT or the reverse, just farm your score that way. with higher rank, you will get higher ???'s for sure.
IF you regard FL a much easier mode to DT, why don't you farm your score that way?
+1
Kert
It's getting better and better.
And still: What about approvals? I am like pretty sure first 500-1000 players in this new ranking play them
KirisameTempest

Nashmun wrote:

If a high-skilled player, who plays a lot of insane unsubmitted maps, wants to have the rank he deserve, he have to play on ranked map, otherwise he'll always be lower in ranking than a "normal-skilled" player who play more :<
lol that sounds exactly like me. except i plat submitted just not yet approved maps ;w;
YodaSnipe
I hope approved maps are counted, I have a bunch more top40s on there that are pretty decent. A lot of approved maps are harder than ranked maps anyways. or most /w.e
KirisameTempest
^ completly agree with that becuase a good 75% of all maps i play are approved and not ranked (0108 and such)
lolcubes

YodaSnipe wrote:

I hope approved maps are counted, I have a bunch more top40s on there that are pretty decent. A lot of approved maps are harder than ranked maps anyways. or most /w.e
They are. I fixed a score on an approved map (read one of my previous posts here) from 97%ish to 99.5% and gained a point.
Hernan
And do high scores with difficulty reduction mods worth more points than lower scores without them? As in the Big black.
Drafura

Hernan wrote:

And do high scores with difficulty reduction mods worth more points than lower scores without them? As in the Big black.
Easy mod is teh hardest mod ever dude *.*
OzzyOzrock
5758 my ass
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