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[Rule Change - osu!catch] Consecutive non-basic HDashes (Rain)

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13
MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb
Hello there!

Whilst reading through ZiRoX's RC Cleanup proposal, I noticed this, but decided that this suggestion should probably be kept seperate, as it requires more discussion.

There is a rule for rain difficulties in osu!catch that says the following:

Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. If higher-snapped hyperdashes are used, they must not be used in conjunction with other hyperdashes or higher-snapped dashes.


Whilst this rule seems very fitting for a rain difficulty with consecutive higher-snapped HDashes being less than 125ms (1/4 at 120bpm) apart, I feel as though certain usage of these, specifically without a direction change, poses no real difficulty compared to patterns expected of players at this skill level, and that a clause similar to the platter rule for higher snapped dashes could be used here for higher snapped HDashes.

Taking the rule from the Platter RC as a baseline, here's what I came up with for the new rule:

Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. Higher-snapped hyperdashes can be used up to two times between consecutive fruits, provided there isn't a direction change between them.


It may also be worth adding a clause regarding antiflow after these patterns, however this may be seen as unnecessary, as in reality it'll play in a very similar way to a basic hyperdash.

Most recent proposal wording
Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. Higher-snapped hyperdashes with the same time difference can be used up to two times between consecutive fruits, provided there isn't a direction change between them, and they are not followed by a dash.
Last edited by MBomb , edited 2 times in total.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
Your wording also allows higher-snapped dashes to be used after higher-snapped HDashes, even with antiflow involved. I'd get that part back, either as a separate rule or adding it back to the rule somehow.
MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb
Right, well I was really hoping for more than 1 response, but considering it's been over 2 weeks now, I guess I'll stop waiting and reply.

ZiRoX wrote:

Your wording also allows higher-snapped dashes to be used after higher-snapped HDashes, even with antiflow involved. I'd get that part back, either as a separate rule or adding it back to the rule somehow.


Looking through the RC, there's no actual definition for a higher-snapped dash in a rain, so this is a little confusing to me. As well as this, it's the only place where dashes are mentioned in the rain RC at all. This may be something to be addressed in a different place, however, it did remind me of something I missed in the original post, which is that I feel these patterns in general just shouldn't be followed by dashes at all. So my proposed wording change is as follows:

Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. Higher-snapped hyperdashes can be used up to two times between consecutive fruits, provided there isn't a direction change between them, and they are not followed by a dash.
Last edited by MBomb , edited 1 time in total.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
Fair point about the higher-snapped dashes, they aren't defined so it doesn't make sense to keep them in this rule. However, I don't see how your latest proposal limits dashes after the HDashes (or does in a clear way, as I can think of one really convolute interpretation that does).
MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb
My proposal doesn't limit dashes over regular higher-snapped HDashes, only after consecutive higher snapped HDashes, however without a definition for higher-snapped dashes in this difficulty, the current rule also doesn't have this. The best way I can think of doing this without too much wordiness is another rule, which I don't think is something pertaining to this thread, but if it kills two birds with one stone, I'm all for it.

Higher-snapped Hyperdashes may be followed by dashes, if the time between the ticks of the dash is 62ms or higher. As an example, 1/6 dashes would be allowed at 160 BPM and below, whereas 1/8 dashes would be allowed at 120 BPM and below.


In a previous discussion in the BN server before I left, a 1/4 dash was what most people saw as a "higher-snapped" dash in a rain, even though there was no strict definition, so I feel as though this is the best way to do it. Again however, remember this rule is seperate to the rule I'm proposing, and is not part of my proposal here.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, there was something written incorrectly in my last post which is what you meant, fixed it.
Last edited by MBomb , edited 2 times in total.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
Allowing two consecutive higher-snapped hypers is a nice step for Rain difficulties. The current limitation wouldn't allow cases like the one below...

O
__________O
_____________________O

...in which there isn't a real difficulty increase compared to the same case involving two 1/2 objects.

MBomb wrote:

Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. Higher-snapped hyperdashes can be used up to two times between consecutive fruits, provided there isn't a direction change between them, and they are not followed by a dash.


The wording of your last proposal strikes out the previous limitation of not using basic hyperdashes together with higher-snapped hyperdashes. However, I'd like to keep that limitation for Rain difficulties, as it sort of brings more stability while performing.

To the limitations of this allowance mentioned in your last proposal...
- Two higher-snapped hyperdashes max
- No direction change involved (so no bober hypers case)

... I'd also like to have these ones included as well:
- Hyperdash spacing should not exceed a distance snap of 1.1 times the trigger distance: Exact limitation can be discussed, though I'd rather like to keep it low
- The movement after the hyperdash must be walkable: Whether there's a bit of antiflow afterwards or not, if the previous hyperdash spacing isn't quite high, there should be some kind of static flow to recover from the double hyperdash
Last edited by Deif , edited 1 time in total.
Secre
Nomination Assessment Team
366 posts
Joined January 2013
Secre
The part regarding the higher snapped dash or w/e is a blunder from a previous RC rule change from the no dashes following a higher snapped dash rule. My intent with that change was to have any dash <125ms be counted as a "higher snapped dash" for the purpose of this rule.

As for MBomb's proposal, I think this is personally the wrong direction for rains to be headed in. Not once have we seen people think rains are too easy, and this will only make rains harder in the long run, something that people have expressed their dissatisfaction with.

If people really DO want this change to go through though, I believe deif's limiting rules are almost a must to go with this, along with another proposal that MBomb listed but changed a bit.

Higher-snapped Hyperdashes may be followed by dashes, if the time between the ticks of the dash is 125ms or higher. As an example, 1/3 dashes would be allowed at 160 BPM and below, whereas 1/4 dashes would be allowed at 120 BPM and below.

Currently there are almost no dashes in rain difficulties that go below 62 ms. 125ms is a much fitting barrier for this.

The difference between this proposed rule regarding dashes and the one regarding hdashes would be that you could use direction changes with dashes, while you could not use direction changes with hdashes. I think this would be a much fairer and appropriate approach to balancing rains while also making more room for variability in mapping style.
MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb

Deif wrote:

The wording of your last proposal strikes out the previous limitation of not using basic hyperdashes together with higher-snapped hyperdashes. However, I'd like to keep that limitation for Rain difficulties, as it sort of brings more stability while performing.


Whoops, didn't realise this was part of the same rule. If a way for this to be added without being too wordy could be thought of, that'd be great, my mind's struggling with that right now.

Deif wrote:

... I'd also like to have these ones included as well:
- Hyperdash spacing should not exceed a distance snap of 1.1 times the trigger distance: Exact limitation can be discussed, though I'd rather like to keep it low
- The movement after the hyperdash must be walkable: Whether there's a bit of antiflow afterwards or not, if the previous hyperdash spacing isn't quite high, there should be some kind of static flow to recover from the double hyperdash


For your first point: I don't feel this is too necessary. With the restrictions in place already, the HDash strength isn't too important, and considering a higher snapped HDash at this bpm is, at fastest, 62ms, 2 HDashes without a direction change between them will never really be able to be spaced much higher than the trigger distance anyway.

As for the second point: My wording change included in my last post actually does limit this. (Maybe should update the main post to reflect that, but I think it's better to keep the changes in thought process behind the change clear).

chickenbible wrote:

As for MBomb's proposal, I think this is personally the wrong direction for rains to be headed in. Not once have we seen people think rains are too easy, and this will only make rains harder in the long run, something that people have expressed their dissatisfaction with.


I don't think this change makes rains harder at all though. As explained by Deif, "there isn't a real difficulty increase compared to the same case involving two 1/2 objects.". This pattern plays very similar to a 1/2 HDash, the only real difference being there's an object in the middle, which isn't a problem because it's caught by the natural flow. It's a very similar concept to the platter rule that was added for a similar reason, in that it's not something for adding difficulty as much as something for well emphasising consecutive notes without adding much in terms of actual difficulty or playability.
Last edited by MBomb , edited 1 time in total.
Absolute Zero
595 posts
Joined August 2014
Absolute Zero
To avoid the issue with hypers of lower and higher snaps next to each other, perhaps you could just tack on the end "...and they are not followed by a dash or are in conjunction with hyperdashes with a different snapping." (or something like that).

I think that putting a hyperdash spacing limit on rains is a little unnecessary as well, although if we would I'd crank it up to at least 1.3x or so to leave breathing room for emphasis. However, I would be okay with putting a cap on how strong a hyper or dash can be after coming from an antiflow hyperdash as an alternative, since those patterns can be quite noticeable difficulty spikes when they occur and the hyper is very strong.
MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb

Absolute Zero wrote:

To avoid the issue with hypers of lower and higher snaps next to each other, perhaps you could just tack on the end "...and they are not followed by a dash or are in conjunction with hyperdashes with a different snapping." (or something like that).


I actually thought this was a rule already in a different capacity with "Basic hyperdashes of different beat snap should not be used between consecutive fruits." but it's actually a guideline, my bad on missing that possibility.

I feel your wording is a little confusing to just add on the end, since it would be seen as "in conjunction with the other 2 HDashes" which is already done as unrankable here since only 2 in a row are fine, so I tried to add it a different way, and this was my solution.

Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. Higher-snapped hyperdashes with the same time difference can be used up to two times between consecutive fruits, provided there isn't a direction change between them, and they are not followed by a dash.




Absolute Zero wrote:

However, I would be okay with putting a cap on how strong a hyper or dash can be after coming from an antiflow hyperdash as an alternative, since those patterns can be quite noticeable difficulty spikes when they occur and the hyper is very strong.


I'm fine with this personally, but this would fall under a different proposal I feel.
Last edited by MBomb , edited 1 time in total.
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
203 posts
Joined February 2013
Greaper
Changing this would be a nice addition for rain mappers by giving more freedom in hyper variation, but I agree with Deif here that adding those two points in this rule is necessary.

MBomb wrote:

For your first point: I don't feel this is too necessary. With the restrictions in place already, the HDash strength isn't too important, and considering a higher snapped HDash at this bpm is, at fastest, 62ms, 2 HDashes without a direction change between them will never really be able to be spaced much higher than the trigger distance anyway.


Specifying this in the rule would be a great way to enforce mappers to not go all out with higher snapped distances.

About the trigger distance, increasing this to 1.2 would be my recommendation because it still plays well without making it to snappy at 62ms.

Also rewording the proposed rule to this would be much better in my opinion:

Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. Higher-snapped hyperdashes can be used up to two times between consecutive fruits, provided there isn't a direction change between them. If used, spacing should not exceed a distance snap of 1.2 times the trigger distance and they must be followed by a walkable distance.
Last edited by Greaper , edited 1 time in total.
MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb
I'm not exactly opposed to the trigger distance addition, it just feels unnecessary to me, however I'm not against it being added. I was just more worried about it being a little too wordy like that. Will wait for other comments regarding it.

Especially considering your new wording is rather long and doesn't encompass the issue mentioned by AZ of both HDashes having the same snaps, the wordiness of the rule is a big concern, at least to me.
Last edited by MBomb , edited 1 time in total.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance
Yeah so personally I don’t think this is a necessary change and there isn’t enough interaction with this post to make me believe that this is a change that needs to be implemented at this time. I’ve waited quite some time and even pinged people to leave thoughts to relatively no avail. Until this proposal generates more steam or becomes a necessity to change, I’ll be shutting it down.

Sorry for this result, but leaving the thread up to rot for weeks on end is not a viable option.
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