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[Proposal] Making Burai Sliders Rankable

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Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
hey so i know this is kinda a controversial topic but i think this really needs to be addressed.

for those unaware, the term "burai" is an osu slang for sliders whose bodies double back on themselves. these have been considered unrankable for years now because obscured sliderbodies are considered unsightreadable and can cause unfair combo breaks. however, as mapping has evolved more and more, it's become increasingly apparent that these sliders aren't actually that problematic for experienced players when they're integrated well.

there are many examples of burai sliders being completely readable by players:
  1. various sliderart with intuitive paths based on the slidershape, such as letters and numbers, etc.
  2. all aspire winners featured heavy use of burai sliders, and they were all considered readable and were popular among players and mappers
  3. sliders with only tiny burai features are frequently allowed to be ranked atm despite being clear rule violations bc they don't inhibit gameplay at all
  4. any slider without sliderticks is fcable on sightread bc players only need to click the sliderhead to hold combo, so those all practically don't inhibit gameplay
  5. check out https://osu.ppy.sh/s/727568 02:25:154 (1) - for an example of a burai slider that's easily sightread and doesn't fit in any of the previous categories, showing lots of potential for exploration of a cool game mechanic being lost due to the current rc
we also know that soon burai sliders will actually be readable on sightread with osu!lazer, because a slider's body will disappear as the sliderball travels across it. so if there's still sliderbody behind the sliderball, it means it's a burai.

with all this considered, i really see no reason for these sliders to be locked behind a rule, especially when the current implementation of the rule is allowing for a lot of subjectivity, which is something hard rules should typically avoid. burai sliders were made unrankable in a time when players were way worse than they currently are. nowadays the rule seems outdated. i propose we repurpose the rule into a guideline for higher difficulties, and keep it a rule for lower difficulties.

if there is too much opposition to this for the game's current state, i propose we plan for the future and prepare a rulechange for when osu!lazer is fully integrated into the public. burai sliders will be a non-issue at this time, but i don't want to wait months after this time comes for ranking criteria to update itself.

tl;dr i think this rule:

rool wrote:

Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous cannot be used, such as burai sliders and hold sliders without straightforward slider borders.
should be moved from the General criteria to the Easy, Normal, and Hard sections of the difficulty-specific criteria. It could also be included in Insane if people feel the need for it, and it can be reworded into a guideline for any higher difficulty if people feel the need for it.

and yes before you say anything im aware a similar thread exists for this already but that thread got no real traction and it's proposing a much weaker suggestion so im posting my own.
Nifty
who is rool and why are they telling me what to do
Xinnoh
please don't highlight everyone in the server to read your thread in the future
squirrelpascals
I feel like these types of things that were once rules shift to being guidelines because natural changes / innovations in the mapping meta ensure that such a change will be consistent across maps and is consistently received well by players. I dont feel like this is the case here though. shifting this completely over to be a guideline is unjustified.

Also, don't @everyone lol, there was like no discussion happening about this.
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
if its not the case here then give reasoning for why you think burai shouldnt be rankable

yknow, aside from "bc some people think it shouldn't be rankable." some people think big sv changes or perfect overlapping sliders shouldn't be rankable either, but here we are

also that hl was just me trolling
lewski
make burai rankable

I've never made a burai slider but make burai rankable







spread changes when
quanhitter37
make burai rankable owo
Natteke desu
Once lazer comes xd
Problem with burais is its pretty vertical dab emoji to judge if these done good or not and due to nature of burais i believe its a bit too soon to talk about these in current version of ozy.
But yeah, once we get lazer, why not
TheKingHenry

UndeadCapulet wrote:

these sliders aren't actually that problematic for experienced players when they're integrated well.
inb4
"This burai slider isn't intergrated too well, needs some changes for it to work"
"No it's my style"
Izzywing

TheKingHenry wrote:

UndeadCapulet wrote:

these sliders aren't actually that problematic for experienced players when they're integrated well.
inb4
"This burai slider isn't intergrated too well, needs some changes for it to work"
"No it's my style"
you can say this about any rule change ever, so..

personally I think putting them as a guideline wouldnt be the worst idea but realistically we're probably gonna end up waiting til lazer
Monstrata


Curious if people think this is rankable or not. I showed it to a few QAT's and the majority said it was questionable but not unrankable, and its actually rather clear where you're supposed to go, you just have to think a bit. Well, this one's a bit easy.



This one might be trickier but should still be obvious with a bit of elimination, and operating under the assumption that one does not go back on itself unnecessarily. (ie, it's not logical to go directly to the slider-end, and then go back to play top and bottom sections)
Natteke desu
whole burai thing highly depends on slider lenght and sv, really short ones wont be a problem even today, but longer ones can be, so as i stated it's a bit too soon for those immo (at least not for a baby ones) because judging playability of burais highly depends on person's opinion about how fast slider should be to be readable. No offence but i dont think there is a lot of people who can do this good enough to please at minimum half of the community. Hope to be mistaken thought
Seijiro
Giving more stuff to mappers when they can barely manage to make things with what they already have smh

Well, jokes aside, the whole burai concept is too subjective to make it a guideline imo. People will argue whether one of those is good or not (and we know how it usually ends).

I'd rather have a special category for maps implementing this stuff (you know, maybe making "approval" maps worth something).
Saying this I'm also accounting for the fact mappers WILL do some sort of shit and people will complain.
If you make a whole section for all of them people will know what they are going into at their own risk.
TheKingHenry

Hobbes2 wrote:

you can say this about any rule change ever, so..
That was exactly what I meant with my post lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
people already argue about just what circle placements are good or not, should we just make circles illegal too

saying "some integrations might be bad, so we should ban all of them" is a very flawed argument. if there are good integrations, those should not be banned
Natteke desu
Circles placement and burais are slightly different things though. Second one is supposed be to hard to read edgy thing, while circles are in general standard object which you can put in a missleading way, but it doesnt makes it missleading by nature. So point is if you would make already screwed stuff even more screwed it would end with babyraging people. Just to be clear, personally im up to whatever shit if it fits well, so i wouldnt mind, but my opinion is far from being defining, so i have to be reasonable. Lazer when
As for integrations, if ut would be possible to make clear which burai slider can be considered acceptable and which is not i'll be the first saying my yes, i just dont see it coming
Ephemeral
gut response here is no, followed by no followed again by NO

monstrata's cited examples don't look that bad upon a cursory appraisal of more than a few seconds, but when faced with that kind of pattern or placement in an actual track, it essentially almost forces an automatic drop in a large percentage of people

slider paths need to be clear and not ambiguous because ambiguous ones are absolutely awful to play almost universally. at least from my perspective anyway

i could see some relaxation of this rule with concessions given to readability and concept (also similar to what monstrata expressed), but i'm not sure i trust mappers enough to do this properly at the moment generally speaking
CXu

Ephemeral wrote:

gut response here is no, followed by no followed again by NO

monstrata's cited examples don't look that bad upon a cursory appraisal of more than a few seconds, but when faced with that kind of pattern or placement in an actual track, it essentially almost forces an automatic drop in a large percentage of people

slider paths need to be clear and not ambiguous because ambiguous ones are absolutely awful to play almost universally. at least from my perspective anyway

i could see some relaxation of this rule with concessions given to readability and concept (also similar to what monstrata expressed), but i'm not sure i trust mappers enough to do this properly at the moment generally speaking
If they're only allowed for the higher difficulties, then the fact that you have to look at them for a bit to process them isn't a problem. There are already patterns today that could be intentionally misleading (such as a loop) which just gets removed during the modding process, so players expect that sliders will follow their natural pathing (how else would you read something like notch hell? You could technically make sliders go in all kinds of directions without actually making a burai slider, but we do accept the most logical path. For burai's to be allowed all they have to do is to be unambiguous, which can be achieved in the same way we keep complex sliders unambiguous; to require them to follow whatever is the logical path.

I wrote a thingamathing a few years ago about burai sliders that kinda just got lost to time (t/369339), but I still stand by that any burai slider that does not cross itself more than once on the same spot are fine and completely readable by any player who's at a high enough level, given enough time to get used to the concept of burai sliders in general .
Stack
is every burai slider under this rule rankable? or does it still need the opinion of others to be considered as rankable cause both these options seem bad.
if you leave it up to the bn iconing to decide if a slider is rankable then itll just lead to way more discussions and controversial maps being popped.

you need an objective way to judge them being fair, and ofcourse there will be doable cases that will be judged as unrankable with this rule, but I'd rather have that than drama on tons of maps cause of it all being subjective
LowAccuracySS
YES

PLEASE
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