What's up with the hate on PP maps?

I hear people all the time complaining about mappers making maps that are easy to get PP from, but it doesn't unfairly advantage anyone, since anyone can play them (but, seriously, why would you play the choco-cookie song? it's terrible).

And while we're on it, what's up with the hate on players who try to gain PP? It seems like a fun activity.

We already had this discussion like two weeks ago.

t/642741&start=0

Tribalism

Philosofikal wrote:

We already had this discussion like two weeks ago.

t/642741&start=0

Oh. Sorry. (can't delete post)

I wouldn't say its unethical but just kinda bad.

It kinda kills out other mapping styles due to sheer popularity. Maps are becoming more sharp angles/bursts and less wacky and weird. Idk if thats a good thing or not but I kinda missed the time when every maps are unique. even if it meant I'll lose many pp.

also due to personal bias of topping my 7 minute HR FC with a 60 second DT jumps. but maybe that's the pp system to blame.

Mio Winter wrote:

What's up with the hate on PP maps?

I hear people all the time complaining about mappers making maps that are easy to get PP from, but it doesn't unfairly advantage anyone, since anyone can play them (but, seriously, why would you play the choco-cookie song? it's terrible).

And while we're on it, what's up with the hate on players who try to gain PP? It seems like a fun activity.

I will give you an example, from life:

What's up with all hate towards fastfoods?

Simple: it taste great and everyone love it despite it is full of chemicals and artificial ingredients who are supposed to imitate real food, as well as everyone only hear "but it is natural". One simple example - naturally made roll from flour, milk, water, eggs taste completely different from this sold in fastfood shit right? Right! You can make it in home, better, if you live in small agricultural village, you have access to truly natural ingredients, yet you will never create same taste of any single shit sold in fastfood. Reason is simple - amount of chemicals added in production stage to make it look better, taste better, keep fresh longer.

Does people like it? - Yes, hell yea, tons of kids and adults who doesn't care about healthy life loves it.
Is it good? - Hell no, it simply decrease your lifespan due your body being unable to handle all this chemicals.

Translating to pp maps:

Does people like them? - Yes! They give massive amount of pp and you don't need to work for it at all, you don't need to obtain any skillsets, you just need to mash keys and get FC.
Is it good? - Hell no, it simply makes you a worst kind of player who will be never be a competition to someone who spend his time to polish consistency, accuracy and stamina.

You simply will NEVER see a pp farmer who spend his life on monstrata garbage maps going higher in any tournament than group stage.

Yet to find balance, in both situations:

Eating fastfood from time to time is fine - playing pp maps from time to time when you somehow miss some pp, you want to get some certain rank or just fill the gap for some shit is fine.

TL;DR:

Sorry but 10k all-rounder player with stable, high quality aim consistency, high accuracy and good stamina will be always better than 1k player who got all pp from 30s-1m maps.

PP maps makes ranking irrelevant right now.
Ranking means jackshit right now.
Telling someone that you are higher than him is pointless if your top ranks from top to bottom are garbage pp maps while other guy have from top to bottom mainly full size 1k+ combo, tech maps, slider art maps and maybe just some pp maps - Why? - Because he can just simply pick one of his top ranks, ask you to play it and you will need to really work out to get close to his score while he pick one of your top ranks 30s map and FC it at max few tries.

I had this situation myself in random multi where 4k rank player wasnt able to reach more than 400 combo on a 4,7* 10min marathon map. His top ranks were.... yeah - harumachi, cookie monster, bill nye, ok dad etc.
It was fun to see random 30-40k players being placed higher than a "4k high ranked player".

[Taiga] wrote:

Sorry but 10k all-rounder player with stable, high quality aim consistency, high accuracy and good stamina will be always better than 1k player who got all pp from 30s-1m maps.

I bet you're jealous cause u can't play 270BPM DT maps LUL

N0thingSpecial wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

Sorry but 10k all-rounder player with stable, high quality aim consistency, high accuracy and good stamina will be always better than 1k player who got all pp from 30s-1m maps.

I bet you're jealous cause u can't play 270BPM DT maps LUL

Well, I can't, nothing wrong with this. I am not speed player and will never be. Especially now where I am not motivated to play this game.
This example was just picked from history of osu tournaments which I tend to follow as far as they are streamed (to keep myself informed which maps are most common in tournaments right now).

It makes them feel better about themselves for being bad
Don't take that away from them

N0thingSpecial wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

Sorry but 10k all-rounder player with stable, high quality aim consistency, high accuracy and good stamina will be always better than 1k player who got all pp from 30s-1m maps.

I bet you're jealous cause u can't play 270BPM DT maps LUL

no savage ples

The PP system is not perfect, and it never will be. Those who don't play farm maps just don't have the skillset to fc them (unless it's a casual player who doesn't play for ranks of course). So instead of farming those maps, they hammer other players for playing them since it's "only a TV size map" and "doesn't require skill".
I used to be one of those salty players, until I realized how poorly the PP system determines skill. It's just a simple indication.

"DT takes no skill" has become a meme in this sense. There are countless of maps that range from 150pp to 300pp which I would call DT maps. The AR is always between 8 and 8.5, which makes reading the map a breeze (ex: Daidai Genome). Once you get to ar9 though, it's a completely different story. Reading 10.3 and above, requires a lot of hard work and dedication. It ain't easy. Everytime I see a "but DT is easy, LOL" comment on rafis' newest video I roll my eyes.

A problem with the ranking system is how it creates players who only play for the sole purpose of seeing their ranking number get smaller. The search for the next big PP map drives mappers into creating these 30 second jump fiestas. Monstrata is a great example of this. He has made countless maps that are designed to generate as much PP as possible. He's constantly pushing the limits of what's allowed. He's arguably the most well known PP mapper, but at the same time one of the big innovators in mapping.

At the end of the day nothing really matters and we all should just stop caring and playing for fun.
pls enjoy game

Those who don't play farm maps just don't have the skillset to fc them (unless it's a casual player who doesn't play for ranks of course).

When last guy told this to me personally:

Below 10 tries.
Right now I just wait when peppy decide to provide "paid score removing service" to get rid of this bullshit from my top ranks.
(Reference: https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Help_Center - We are considering extra 'score reset' purchases from the osu!store for the truly hardcore players who wish nothing but perfection in their stats, but as it currently stands, we cannot wipe an account's statistics for you.)

So instead of farming those maps, they hammer other players for playing them since it's "only a TV size map" and "doesn't require skill".
I used to be one of those salty players, until I realized how poorly the PP system determines skill. It's just a simple indication.

It is not about skill, it is about pure fact of that certain maps called "pp maps" really doesn't require any skill to play. Period.
There are TV-Size maps which also gives huge pp but they are build in way which require either strong aim due weird patterns, burst aim due weird burst angles etc.
Lately pp maps are just random jumps placed in screen edges with low bpm which really doesn't require anything than just a bit of focus and few working brain cells to FC this, more:



281pp for 90% acc FC of 172 pure jump combo... Like please......

Paranoid Lost from Halozy is sitting in corner and crying.... and this is map which require effort and certain skillsets for FC, not to mention SS score.


or better example - another farm map which in comparision to cookie monster looks VERY BALANCED:



Being a farm map is one thing but what monstrata is providing lately is pure bullshit.
Calling pp maps a "no skill maps" is not a meme in this days, it was before.... not now.

"DT takes no skill" has become a meme in this sense. There are countless of maps that range from 150pp to 300pp which I would call DT maps. The AR is always between 8 and 8.5, which makes reading the map a breeze (ex: Daidai Genome). Once you get to ar9 though, it's a completely different story. Reading 10.3 and above, requires a lot of hard work and dedication. It ain't easy. Everytime I see a "but DT is easy, LOL" comment on rafis' newest video I roll my eyes.

At least for me it was never a meme. There is a lot AR8 maps within 220-240 bpm which are way more complicated than a normal TV-Size map.
AR9+DT is like you said - hard work and dedication. Something which is at least not for me but even I have respect for a lot of scores made in this range.

Monstrata is a great example of this. He has made countless maps that are designed to generate as much PP as possible. He's constantly pushing the limits of what's allowed. He's arguably the most well known PP mapper, but at the same time one of the big innovators in mapping.

Monstrata simply copy pasted what fycho and Fort discovered because first pure jumpy pp maps started from this two guys.
Monstrata just used their knowledge and added his "triangle" patterns to this.
Calling this "innovating" is pretty much like giving Apple Corp credits for developing OSX system from scratch - same shit with exception that OSX core is a FreeBSD Free use license which is a descendant of BSD developed in University of California, Berkeley.
You see the difference?

[Taiga] wrote:

Monstrata simply copy pasted what fycho and Fort discovered because first pure jumpy pp maps started from this two guys.
Monstrata just used their knowledge and added his "triangle" patterns to this.
Calling this "innovating" is pretty much like giving Apple Corp credits for developing OSX system from scratch - same shit with exception that OSX core is a FreeBSD Free use license which is a descendant of BSD developed in University of California, Berkeley.
You see the difference?

Okay I want to clarify that I was not calling his farm maps innovation, but rather maps like this, this and this.
Pushing the boundaries of what is rankable is something we see way too little of.

Endie- wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

Monstrata simply copy pasted what fycho and Fort discovered because first pure jumpy pp maps started from this two guys.
Monstrata just used their knowledge and added his "triangle" patterns to this.
Calling this "innovating" is pretty much like giving Apple Corp credits for developing OSX system from scratch - same shit with exception that OSX core is a FreeBSD Free use license which is a descendant of BSD developed in University of California, Berkeley.
You see the difference?

Okay I want to clarify that I was not calling his farm maps innovation, but rather maps like this, this and this.
Pushing the boundaries of what is rankable is something we see way too little of.

With this one, I agree.
Yet right now he is in the group of mappers who destroy ranking and ruin fun for many players just to be "popular".

How is he destroying anything? He isn't altering any ranking criteria.
Ruin fun? Players who don't like his maps are not obligated to play them. Could you elaborate?

Endie- wrote:

How is he destroying anything? He isn't altering any ranking criteria.
Ruin fun? Players who don't like his maps are not obligated to play them. Could you elaborate?

Inflating performance points into ranking by creating maps which abuse pp formula.
One group of players may enjoy it, other hate it.
Slowly there is more people who hate it than like it, yet he keeps making this maps.
Group who hate it have just ruined fun from this game.

Looking for future, when this tendency will progress, you will be literally FORCED to play this maps just to be relevant for ranking.
Right now there is less quality maps which guarantee progression of skills than "simple jumpy pp maps" and this tendency is growing.

I don't need to be wizard or prophet to see that in the future If you don't play this garbage maps, you will not go up in ranking at all, will just decay.

[Taiga] wrote:

Right now I just wait when peppy decide to provide "paid score removing service" to get rid of this bullshit from my top ranks.
(Reference: https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Help_Center - We are considering extra 'score reset' purchases from the osu!store for the truly hardcore players who wish nothing but perfection in their stats, but as it currently stands, we cannot wipe an account's statistics for you.)

omgosh I really want this. My aim is to have nothing but pretty scores (pretty maps, pretty songs or whatever) on my profile, but I can't get high enough PP on the pretty maps yet to overcome my scores on more boring songs (and sometimes I accidentally get high scores on things I don't want on my profile; I thought the difficulty of Paradisus-Paradoxum I got my highest PP score on was unranked, which is why I didn't stop myself from FCing it).

But even if I don't participate fully in the PP race, I can imagine doing so and thinking it's fun, so I don't want to put down players who do farm PP maps, and I don't want to put down mappers who do provide PP maps.

Except maybe... I think some of Monstrata's maps are on the extreme end, and I don't like them being ranked, really. If we apply my poorly-thought-out standards for ranking, Daidai Genome and RADWIMPS maps would be ranked, easily; but OK DAD, Choco-Cookie, Bill Nye and Yuima-ru*World maybe not. I think the fact that the latter maps got ranked makes the "ranked maps" category kind of a joke. Not sure.

[Taiga] wrote:

I don't need to be wizard or prophet to see that in the future If you don't play this garbage maps, you will not go up in ranking at all, will just decay.

It's already like this. You have to play PP maps in order to gain PP. If you're a technical virtuoso who doesn't like to play PP maps, your PP score will be way underrated. But

The PP system measures this: your ability and willingness to gain PP. Your ability to gain PP is very strongly correlated with how good you are as an osu! player. Your motivation to gain PP... not so much. You could be MinG3012 whose highest PP ratings are all D's when he could easily achieve much higher rank by trying for better acc. But because most players seem relatively motivated to gain PP sometimes, the PP system is a rough estimate for how good you can expect a player to be, even though there are many exceptions.

So the PP system measures actual skill quite inaccurately, but I don't think we should blame PP mappers for this. Some PP maps are genuinely well-made and fun to play (and I kinda like easy-to-read jumps sometimes), and I don't want to ask mappers to stop making these (other PP maps I don't want to play, but I'm not going to begrudge others for playing them).

If the PP system is inaccurate, I think we should focus on changing it rather than changing mappers. Oi, that's a fun topic. I think there should be Elo ratings in addition to the PP system. Elo rating is the system used in chess, and you gain + for winning over others in multi and - for losing. Your change in rating depends on how high or low a rating your opponent had. Or even use Elo ratings instead of star ratings to determine the difficulty of maps.

Ok let's face the reality, I don't even have aim to farm pp map, calling pp farmer doesn't have skill is unreasonable for me at least...
Also lacking dt, hr or hd capability.
Idk why people judge pp farmer and pp map that badly, why don't you try it instead of completely avoid it.

Mio Winter wrote:

but, seriously, why would you play the choco-cookie song? it's terrible

I am offended, choco cookie is the song of my people