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One month later: where are we now? [ANALYSIS]

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Topic Starter
johnmedina999
Hello, and good evening. I would like to explore the outcomes, challenges, and aftermath of the OT Civil War, as some have called it, and the rules that resulted from it. All is not well in the sub forum because of this war, in fact, I would argue that we are worse off than we were before the drama started. I would actually say that we are in the worst position that OT has ever been, even when compared to the reign of the three modern shitposters, of whom we all know.

First, a bit of background: the OT Civil War was fought between two sides. These two sides made quite a bit of drama during the period of OT in which there were no moderators, which I will name the Warring States Period. This Warring States Period only happened because the previous moderator of OT, Flanster, got fed up with how immature we were acting. This was extremely fast, as the time period between the departure of Stefan and the departure of Flanster only lasted a few months. What happened here, you ask? It can't be that Flanster is worse as a mod than Stefan, because he has more mod kills than him. The amount of mod kills also implies that he has put up with a lot more shit, so that can be ruled out as well. The only explanation would have to deal with Stefan's last months as moderator. Stefan was always a lenient moderator when it came to closing down shit threads and rule+breaking threads. However, this leniency skyrocketed as his last weeks of moderation approached. He became "lazy", as he said in a thread title. During this "lazy" period, OT Denizens started to become restless and quickly realized that they could post almost anything they wanted to without consequences. This led to a shift in thinking: instead of posting for everyone to have fun, people posted to have fun themselves, at the expense of others. People were still having fun, but it would be akin to the fun someone would have watching videos of people falling down on AFV instead of the fun of enjoying a good multiplayer game, or the fun of playing freeze tag with friends.

This mentality carried over when Flanster took over for Stefan at moderating OT. However, Flan had a different opinion of fun; he would not tolerate shit at any cost. This is presumably the reason why so many threads were locked during his time period; in fact, more threads were locked by Flanster in the short time period that Flanster was an active mod than the amount of threads locked by Stefan in his years of moderating. This is not due to the differences of opinions on moderation, this is due to the shift in mindset.

Flanster soon saw the light and figured out he will never mix OT if it continued to possess this mindset. So he quit, and thus started the Warring States Period, and the rest is history.

The Civil War pit two already divided groups against each other, dividing them further. I argue that this separation is the elephant in the room no one wants to mention. The separation was always there; ITT2 regulars wouldn't post in threads made by other people. But now that they don't have to look for their favorite thread in between other threads, they have even less motive to do so. And rightfully so: due to the new rules, denizens are discouraged to post new threads due to the omnipresent threat of exile. Once the new rules became effective, new thread creation came to a screeching halt. This leads to certain threads acting as sort of a post central, becoming megathreads that reach absurd numbers of pages. The lack of new threads has become a further separator, failing to provide a motive for the divide to fade away.

So in a sense, both sides of the Civil War are to blame: one side has a destructive mentality while the other is eletist and provide nothing more than empty complaints with no action following to help resolve them.

I do not know how to fix this, personally. I would like to have a hard, foolproof solution to fix OT, as it is in my best interest to do so. I've met a lot of people on here that I really appreciate and respect, and whenever I unlock my phone I instinctively check OT. However, I cannot simply ignore these problems. I guess the best solution would be for everyone to try to fix themselves first instead of 1) arguing, or 2) doing nothing. And I mean everybody. Some people might argue that there is no problem that needs to be fixed, but there are certainly at least small issues such as the lack of threads that everyone can agree with.

So that was all. All of this is just my opinions and observations, and I could sure as hell be wrong about everything here, so if I am, please point me out on my points. Thank you for reading (if you did), and good night.

also my birthday is coming up UvU
DJ Enetro
Hmm... nice thread John. I would love to involve myself in the discussion. So let me start off unless I get ninja'd lmao:

Actually, since Taiga exposed me earlier, I was always torn between posting my thoughts or not, coming to the argument of brutal honesty or consideration. Imo I lean toward the "brutal honesty" part.

For clarification, I'll bring up a comment.

Tae wrote:

think before you post
if it sounds shit, don't post
if it doesn't sound shit, don't post

sorted.
Well, not really, unless you are one of those lackeys who look at people not at your level or higher with disdain, and believe me, 82% of OT doesn't have a level that high. Only the basics.
If it doesn't sound like quality, then don't post? Really suspicious, and you even seem like Flanster. At least, when he locks threads...
Not everyone will listen to you, but you can go ahead and try to improve OT. I won't change you anyways haha. Brining me to my next quote:

johnmedina999 wrote:

instead of posting for everyone to have fun, people posted to have fun themselves, at the expense of others.
This is the main point imo that the Beautifiers want to point out.

Shitposters don't really care about respecting other threads' quality. You can say that I'm a worse case, BC here's what's going on in my head:
I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT RESPECTING OTHERS' FEELING RIGHT NOW, I NEED TO HAVE MINES DISPLAYED TOO. I WILL HAVE IT WHICHEVER WAY I WANT IT, NO RESTRICTIONS

Also, yes, the Golden Rule applies, especially about respect, but what if someone doesn't WANT to respect anyone and doesn't care if that respect, or lack thereof, is reciprocated? People with high levels of common sense will go *smh* at this and say that they will get either silenced, banned, or restricted.

But it goes back to the same age-old question: Why do we need to post quality when this is Off-Topic, where no thread has any real value, at least compared to other subforums?

And yes, I want to spam. Imo most of the shitposters will do the same thing. 8-)
Topic Starter
johnmedina999

DJ Enetro wrote:

Shitposters don't really care about respecting other threads' quality. You can say that I'm a worse case, BC here's what's going on in my head:
I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT RESPECTING OTHERS' FEELING RIGHT NOW, I NEED TO HAVE MINES DISPLAYED TOO. I WILL HAVE IT WHICHEVER WAY I WANT IT, NO RESTRICTIONS
But why, I ask? Why can you not respect others' threads, as you're doing right now (ironic, I know)? If you need a personal blog to rant or let your feelings out that can be done quite easily outside of OT. If you want to have others see your feelings you can do that in a respectful manner, as being disrespectful will only cause people to have disrespect towards you, which will lead to people not reading what you write, which defeats the purpose of wanting to post your feelings. If you aim to purposefully disrespect for the sole purpose of disrespecting people, well...I can't say much to that.

DJ Enetro wrote:

But it goes back to the same age-old question: Why do we need to post quality when this is Off-Topic, where no thread has any real value, at least compared to other subforums?
This is the exact mindset I'm talking about. Just because the official description of Off-Topic States that there is no value here doesn't mean you can't produce it, or at least keep it from being a garbage dump. Just because school is for learning doesn't mean you can't go an socialize with people, even though that's not the exact purpose of school. There can be value in this subforum, but only if you make it, or at least don't turn it into trash yourself.
DJ Enetro
discussion.initiate(0.2)

Nicely segueing into the next part.

johnmedina999 wrote:

But why, I ask? Why can you not respect others' threads, as you're doing right now (ironic, I know)?
I am, I'm not taking it that easy. Same as "reading the vibes" or social hints. Maybe it's from being perfectionist maybe? Then again that feeing is overridden when rage consumes my head.
But to answer your question, and believe me, it is a stupid answer; it's more like comments and "stop posting" requests btw.

This will trigger you. Be prepared
Because it seems so random. But an argument can be said that making threads about similar topics implies a lack of creativity.

Actually, it's not really a matter of respecting threads, more like a matter of respecting mods. I think it was because of self-centerism that this happened. After all there was a cycle of how the Satires were created:

Cycle:

Flanster posts in a thread :arrow: thread gets locked :arrow: I do not like the lock :arrow: Satire created with quote and reaction

johnmedina999 wrote:

If you want to have others see your feelings you can do that in a respectful manner
My mind says otherwise, or at least wants. (Not much you can really do about this, sorry. Not even terminating my account will. It's only reflection that works, like that self-imposed week of silence)

johnmedina999 wrote:

If you aim to purposefully disrespect for the sole purpose of disrespecting people, well...I can't say much to that.
I suck at being truly bad lmao. The moment I hurt someone my brain would probably shut off and I'd freeze in place.

johnmedina999 wrote:

Just because the official description of Off-Topic States that there is no value here doesn't mean you can't produce it, or at least keep it from being a garbage dump.
Purely true. Going back to what I believe, that you can only go so far to influence everyone else, as they have to accept it within themselves to spark real change.

People always say that "if you can't contribute to a discussion, don't post. It's not that hard." It is easy only in the physical sense only. Who knows why, don't want to be stopped (even with silences, as if they are silenced they only learn to be scared of silences, and not real quality improvement), hot-tempered, weak/non-existent sense of humor? Then again this is coming from a person who doesn't take being wrong that easy.

Now let's talk about trends. (Then again, everything that not everyone likes that is not feelings or morals is a trend)

It's not just the title that makes a thread quality, it's the content. Like the alphabet threads roshan117 and Yuudachi-kun made a while ago, they were better in FG. Actually now that I think about it, no, as all the alphabet could be listed in one thread. Rip :|

Anyways, it seemed like some Fanclubs could be quality if OCs (Original Creators) made it. I mean, some drama created was pure comedy gold, until I forced Kai's Fanclub open

johnmedina999 wrote:

There can be value in this subforum, but only if you make it, or at least don't turn it into trash yourself.
But I fail to see why you guys want quality here. Not counting spamming, or any bad behavior of the sort.
Serraionga
I almost always posted here to have fun for myself in the first place, never had any change of mindset or something of the sort. While it's true that I sometimes wanted to provoke fun reactions and amusement on certain people, my own entertainment has always been maximum priority to me. It just happens that some people appreciated several posts of mine during my time posting here and I couldn't help but be thankful in return. This """selfish""" trait of mine—if you could call it that—was hinted in my story thread. t/604358

When is your birthday btw?
Zekks
Some of you guys just love to start drama and make things seem more dramatic than it is :c
Fhaye
You forgot too mention two factors that affects OT. Lack of active audience and the creation of this ot!news discord server which I think affects the creation of new threads and what I think causes this so called separation that you've said.

Another thing is how people responded to this new rules, what did some do? people are always complaining. People can always create threads which abides with the new set of rules but what happened? "ahhhhh, I won't post threads from now on until these new rules are lifted" right?

ITT2 regulars wouldn't post in threads made by other people. But now that they don't have to look for their favorite thread in between other threads, they have even less motive to do so.
Are these threads interesting? if not then why would people bother? is this thread worth a reply? so that might be it (looking into their own perspective), why they don't post on some threads.Though I've been lurking here for almost a year and a half and I can say that some of them rarely makes threads like some do and I really won't say that they do not post on other people's threads because I've seen a lot that they do (It will sound a little biased but this is what I see, sorry).

So where are we now? We're in a state of emptiness because some people can't accept changes.
That being said, threads like this are what makes this place more shit. Talking about separation but you're gonna separate it more or maybe you have some other hidden agenda for making this one.
abraker
I do not know how to fix this, personally. I would like to have a hard, foolproof solution to fix OT, as it is in my best interest to do so.
lol foolproof, you funny

There are 2 truths to OT:

1) Shitposts will always be part of OT
  • OT has a rich history of shitposting. For it to not have shitpost, it needs to be cut, past destroyed and a new established with new users and a seed thread that puts an example of what is expected. But then it isn't OT, is it? Remaking an entire subforum is a hack and not a solution, a sad hack if it ever comes to be. Same shits will always be around to cause shit, and no begging will make them stop. Feed a troll and it becomes a giant to take it all. Getting rid of shitposts will be just a cat and mouse game, waste of time.
2) Quality can exist, but takes time and needs reward
  • It is possible to make quality posts, but not many are willing to for the same reason I am not willing to go through the headache of ranking a map. Too much effort for little reward. The only reason OT!news worked this far is because the reward is member bonding and the good feeling that our quality post tops almost anything else (though I have admit, that has been slowly decreasing due to the law of diminishing returns). Now here is the thing: Those who are deeply against OT being shit are also the ones that want to get rid of shit instead of trying something quality. So we can cross out that group of the list, nothing to expect from them. That leaves us with just the ones who post shit and are the ones to expect quality from, as ironic as it sounds.
Doing something alone will be quite a challenge, and it is indeed more fun and easier to make something of quality together. There needs to be a challenge to create something of quality, just like johnmedina999 got challenged to produce the first OT!news. Even after that, it can fall apart faster than you can blink. The person challenged needs to come together with someone else to spread the workload if it must continue.


My solution right now is simple, but temporary: Make a competition for OT's most quality post and offer a reward most would want. They can work alone or as a group, and the winning group gets the reward.

Otherwise, just wait for plain luck. Maybe we can pressure DJ Enetro enough that he will start a thing with someone since he is the next best candidate to try an initiative. Who knows.

That said, if you look at the numbers, we are a small community and it is unreasonable to expect everyone to commit to quality in the already established environment.



As a tl;dr, just ask yourself these questions and hopefully the truth will sink in. I suggest you answer these in the exact order without looking forward.

- Can you tell a person to stop doing something because you told them so?
- How many new OT members post shit threads every week?
- How many of those new OT members stay around?
- How soon do you expect new OT members to start producing quality content?
- What do you think the acceptable ratio between quality posts and shitposts are?
- How much percent of the community do you think posts a thread at least once per week?
- How much percent of the community wants to get rid of shitposts rather than produce something of quality?
- How much percent of the community are you expecting to commit to quality?
- How much percent of the community cares less about quality than going through the effort of making something themselves?
- What do you think is/are the main motive(s) for producing something of quality?
- How often do you think a group can produce something of quality?
- Name at least 5 quality ideas for a thread from the top of you head.
- What do you think the actual ratio between quality posts and shitposts would be considering all of the above?
Tae
I'm not entirely sure why you decide to make such long posts, as we both know they won't produce the results you want. You're in an online forum with a bunch of people who have proven that they aren't exactly willing to listen.

I think it was you that said that even the Minecraft forum was better than this? Tbh, it's true.

Basically all the points raised here have already been discussed at one point, and rejected. There's no fixing this.
DaddyCoolVipper
You're wrong about thread longevity after the rule change. "Megathreads lasting several pages"- no, that's what normal threads are supposed to be. Places for discussion instead of 1 or 2 pages of you and your friends shitpost-circlejerking with no meaningful content.

I just feel like that group doesn't understand what forums are actually like at all.
Tae

DaddyCoolVipper wrote:

I just feel like that group doesn't understand what forums are actually like at all.
They don't, which is why they feel this shit is acceptable in the first place.
DJ Enetro

Serraionga wrote:

I almost always posted here to have fun for myself in the first place, never had any change of mindset or something of the sort.
Well you seem to be a guy we all like and have no problem with (mostly I think.) "Nos gusta tu" as you would say.

[ - Zekks - ] wrote:

Some of you guys just love to start drama and make things seem more dramatic than it is :c
Hmm. Good point. Then again it goes back to different interpretations of common sense, as sometimes points are not expressed clearly enough to drive points home. You can't make everyone change to your view either, for that matter

Hyerim wrote:

People can always create threads which abides with the new set of rules but what happened? "ahhhhh, I won't post threads from now on until these new rules are lifted" right?
Disagree, people just maximized their posting imo, but then again Canadian Baka and others have lessened their thread-creating at least. Also Hyerim consider if they kept going and whether they would be exiled or not.

Hyerim wrote:

Are these threads interesting? if not then why would people bother? is this thread worth a reply?
Ofc they aren't interesting to me, but that's why they make good spam trash bins. Similar to the ctrl+v dump in FG.

abraker wrote:

Shitposts will always be part of OT
Hmm... idk really. Who created the first shitpost on OT?

Tae wrote:

There's no fixing this.
Now, I know this will seem like a satire...
but then again, you haven't tried hard enough. Or maybe you are just too lazy to bring about a change...? Imo Taiga does a better job of fixing up forums than you do. No offense. If you take serious umbridge to my reply, well, happens. :|

DaddyCoolVipper wrote:

You're wrong about thread longevity after the rule change. "Megathreads lasting several pages"- no, that's what normal threads are supposed to be. Places for discussion instead of 1 or 2 pages of you and your friends shitpost-circlejerking with no meaningful content.

I just feel like that group doesn't understand what forums are actually like at all.

Tae wrote:

DaddyCoolVipper wrote:

I just feel like that group doesn't understand what forums are actually like at all.
They don't, which is why they feel this shit is acceptable in the first place.
What would normality be for you two, 3-7 pages, 15 posts/page? Remember this is not the same as other forums you may have visited. Also, not everyone wants to go on osu! every day... Also you can't assume that threads that short are bad, just because there is no discussion. Even chatting could be a discussion, like Allmynamestaken's "The Last Poster Wins" thread.

But it all comes back to perspective and whether people are willing to LISTEN and CONSIDER.
Tae

DJ Enetro wrote:

Tae wrote:

There's no fixing this.
Now, I know this will seem like a satire...
but then again, you haven't tried hard enough. Or maybe you are just too lazy to bring about a change...? Imo Taiga does a better job of fixing up forums than you do. No offense. If you take serious umbridge to my reply, well, happens. :|
Don't you fucking dare say I haven't tried enough or that I'm lazy. The vast majority of the changes to OT were suggested by me from the start. I was attacked by your group then, and I'm being attacked by your group now. Why the FUCK would I bother doing anything when I'm just going to get attacked for it, which your friends enjoy doing.

Fucking educate yourself.

DJ Enetro wrote:

What would normality be for you two, 3-7 pages, 15 posts/page? Remember this is not the same as other forums you may have visited. Also, not everyone wants to go on osu! every day... Also you can't assume that threads that short are bad, just because there is no discussion. Even chatting could be a discussion, like Allmynamestaken's "The Last Poster Wins" thread.

But it all comes back to perspective and whether people are willing to LISTEN and CONSIDER.
That is not the point. A certain degree of respect is expected in all subforums, which for some reason isn't present here. None of you fucks care about the moderators who do this shit in their own time. Literally, it is so fucking selfish of you all.

Aaaand your example belongs in Forum Games, so nice job there.
DJ Enetro
There is a fine line between constructive criticism and purely unneeded bashing. I have not crossed it yet, hopefully I don't.

Tae wrote:

Why the FUCK would I bother doing anything when I'm just going to get attacked for it, which your friends enjoy doing.

johnmedina999 wrote:

It can't be that Flanster is worse as a mod than Stefan, because he has more mod kills than him. The amount of mod kills also implies that he has put up with a lot more shit
And that toleration is something that up until now I can safely admit that I haven't realized until now, so I will respect him for that, at least. (Maybe I was too taken up by shitposting to even realize back then)

Tae wrote:

Fucking educate yourself.
But I am. *smh*
Not just in school but also how you all see what "common sense" is, and why it would make sense.

Tae wrote:

That is not the point. A certain degree of respect is expected in all subforums, which for some reason isn't present here. None of you fucks care about the moderators who do this shit in their own time. Literally, it is so fucking selfish of you all.
Key word being *expected*. But ofc it doesn't happen, which is the reason why mods are here in the first place.

Tae wrote:

Aaaand your example belongs in Forum Games, so nice job there.
Never said it wasn't.

Lastly, going back to what I said to john about mods:
This whole thing was about me not reading the cues, that I should stop making shit threads. (Continually locked by mods)

I'll admit it.
If you expect me to respect mods for their work and post only threads that are meant for lengthy discussion than I will honestly refuse.
DaddyCoolVipper
Put it like this- forums are a social environment, like many places. If you're socially inept and/or disrespectful then you're making things worse for everyone. That's why a level of respect is expected- it means people can actually have meaningful discussion.

If you really can't tolerate that, that's on you. Don't expect your idiocy to be accepted or become the norm- a lack of fundamental respect is what makes communities go to complete shit, nothing more, I think.

Not sure why you think OT is particularly different to other forums, also.
Zekks
Enetro, your way of finding what anyone says that's slightly directed towards you and literally being like, "NOPE! Sorry sweaty pie! That is nooooOoooooOt correct! Make sure you have your ear holes WIIIIIIIIDE open!!1!" (you get the point) You don't always have to react to everything, and I know it's your character, but just chill out, no need to cause a scene c: I usually don't get involved in things like this because it makes me uncomfortable, but I hope you get my point
DJ Enetro
new page, actually nope. I typed so long that Zekks beat me to it by a minute anyways to the point

I'd expect you to actually behave like a decent human being, and not gang up on newcomers/those you disagree with. That is all your "community" does.
You're all fucking toxic, you deserve one another.

Maybe this is why I choose to leave?

Oh yeah, none of you like my serious posting either, so this'll just be ignored like everything else I say. :))
Evidence:
  1. Kas Eestlased veel mänigvad ikka osut?
  2. <deleted>
  3. My stylus broke
There's overwhelming evidence of this. At least on the ganging up on newcomers.
For that, I'm sorry for yelling at them, because it made them feel misplaced and, well, like they received a punch to the chest.

*not gang up on those that you disagree with* - I'll admit that I am one of the biggest perpetrators of this.
I guess that can be interpreted as bashing? I'll stop here for now
Tae
You'll stop?
Finally.

Now if only your friends would be as considerate.

---

Way to completely ignore half of what I said though.
DJ Enetro
Reminds me of what some of my teachers try to say - "don't dominate the conversation"
Rip rip rip
abraker

DJ Enetro wrote:

abraker wrote:

Shitposts will always be part of OT
Hmm... idk really. Who created the first shitpost on OT?
Look back into OT's history, it was like this since the beginning. It's littered with memes and meta and absolute trash within.
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