So make that the rule, not Auto +2000. The fact that you want Auto +2000 means that you are using auto as a benchmark. Make up your mind.

Huh...?

I use Auto +2000 as a "safety net" measure when I do heavy testing myself while creating a beatmap. I don't rely on Auto that much either so don't assume something.

If u guys are done arguing about using auto as a benchmark.... isnt that what we've been doing all this time? and all i see is you guys contradicting yourselves...

Anyways i think the rule no spinner should be short enough that auto cant get more than (insert number here) or that auto gets at least said number, and if your spinner is that short you need at least X ammount of ms until the next note.

On the note position topic, true most players spin around very close to the center of the spinner, however that doesnt mean a note should be in the center, close to the center may be better to avoid hitburst/approach circle confusion (yeah i have seen both happen before), players should have enough recovery time, idk how much it should be but we can discuss it, im not sure about the 100 ms tho, and also add an extra recovery time needed if the mapper wants to put in a stream? (streams are harder to hit right after a spinner, maybe jumps too?).

I think the main problem here would be that the spinner would come and go before the player can even see it, even if its humanly possible to spin a 300 on an auto+1000 spinner... tell me if the player didnt know a spinner was coming could he achieve that? is that considered sightreadable on first attempt? <- although that would go for another thread, remember, players must ALSO have enough reaction time to see the spinner and spin at least a 300, and even more if the spinner catches off guard the player, he will have even a harsher time recovering after it (or maybe that last statement is for me =P)

yes

edit: to elaborate, good players can predict when a spinner is coming because there are no more notes, and yet the music isn't at a point where it would logically go into a break. Even if this were not the case, said good players can react to the spinner fast enough to hit it anyway. Remember, sightreadable on first attempt doesn't necessarily mean they will 300 everything first try every try, but it's still possible that they will.

Right now, I agree with sakura. If you cannot even measure how long the spinner is or if it is even there, I doubt it's sightreadeable.

EDIT: To elaborate on your idea. A good player can see the spinner from start, but what about measuring how long it is? Ninja spinners can throw some people off because you don't know how fast to spin from the start. Not everyone spins the same way (and that is quite obvious by looking at the replays).

That doesn't really make sense. You can clearly see when a spinner appears and react fast enough to still hit it. Use this map as an example: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/53461 on the 0_o difficulty. There is at least one +1000 spinner. See if you can find it without using auto.

Edit: I spin really slow unless I see that a spinner is really long. Even then, I can hit these +1000 spinners and get 300, even without knowing about them ahead of time. Actually I should be more specific. People generally spin really fast until they see the next note, then slow down so that they can hit it. If there is no note after a +1000 spinner, they spin all the way through and clear it very easily.

Auto spins at 477 rpm, if auto gets 1k, which is i think 1 extra spin over the 3 needed to get the 300, after doing some Math, to get a 300 from a spinner auto gets a 1000 from you'd have to reach 356 rpm, so i guess you do have a point, but for this to be possible you'd need to know the spinner is coming, and assuming the player will know a spinner is coming is assuming too much tbh, i'd hardly consider "assuming" as sightreadable on first attempt

Using the example map above, I hit 300 on the "ninja spinner" and my rpm did not once go over 266. Also in this example, you can see the spinner appear before you even hit the last note before it. You know it's coming before you even have to hit it.

Edit: ok, let me propose a rewrite of the rule.

Auto +1000 minimum. No exceptions. Spinners that hit Auto+1000 or Auto+2000 must have at least X milliseconds between the end of the spinner and the next note. We can discuss what "X" is. Somewhere around 500ms seems fine with me, although slightly lower (400ms or so) is still sightreadable and possible to 300 for me 1st try.

Remember, this rule is meant to cover Insane-level difficulties, we wouldn't see this kind of stuff appearing in maps aimed for lower-level players. I can certainly hit this stuff and I suck at spinning.

There is a point to be made about short spinners and the importance of gauging spinning intensity. If a spinner is really short, you may not want to go wild on it because it will throw off your alignment. I don't know about anyone else, but I typically set my mouse movements to end close to wherever the next hit object is so realigning is not much of a chore. If I know the spinner is short (from having played the map in the past) then I know where to place my mouse before the spinner starts, how many iterations are necessary to avoid a combobreak, etc. So I'd argue sightreading is a concern for spinners. It's obvious where they begin, but not obvious where they end if they're so short.

now, if nothing follows a short spinner, the above concern is moot - just spin like a lunatic since you have lots of time to correct yourself. But on the other hand, if nothing follows a short spinner, the spinner doesn't need to be short.

Now riddle me this, is there anything on a song that would propose the use of a spinner so short instead of a slider?

Absolutely.

Aesthetics

Oh wow so those are the famous ninja spinners o.o

Anyways, hmm i do agree with using auto+1000 spinners there, they do make sense with the song in there, although some spinners could've been hit circles or streams imo XD but that's going into the map itself rather than the question at hand.

however dont you think that the ocassions in which auto+1000 fits as a spinner are pretty rare, and that should be handled case by case basis unlike auto+2000? (in fact even now, i still see long spinners that dont fit with anything on the song).

As for the minimum time until next note, i'd need to test it out myself before proposing something, but i still would prefer a minimum time until next note not only for a regular note, but also for streams, they require more concentration, and after recovering from a spinner, you see a load of notes appear is harder to hit them accurately than if you see a few notes start appearing.

Is there anything on a song that would propose of the use of a _____ instead of a _____.

Replace blanks with any mapping technique ever.

So, should we set the limit then?

As much as I disagree with the +1000 spinners, I guess they are ok on Insane and harder difficulties. However, I think that different spinner limits should be set differently according to the difficulty level. I mean, we wouldn't like to see 1000 spinners on an easy diff, right?

What about Insane +1000, Hard +2000, Normal +4000 and Easy +5000 ?
As for recovery time, 1 beat should be enough for Insane/Hard/Normal, and 2 beats for Easy. Unless you guys want to rewrite this on ms.

idk anymore, suggestions?

It's possible to make a spinner so short that you see the notes after before the spinner appears. James did this on one map. This is most definitely not sightreadable.

Short spinners need a recovery time. Long spinners do not.