forum

What is the meaning of a bubble today?

posted
Total Posts
36
Topic Starter
blissfulyoshi
Sort of out of curiosity, but I was wondering, what do people think a bubble means today?

I don't want to get to caught up with the wiki definition or anything technical like that. I want to know what it means in today's practice.

However, before we get started, here is some of my background on it. A bubble is an icon that says a map is ready to be qualified. This does 2 things, signal another BN to check the work and scares away random modders from checking the map in fear of popping it. However, for various understandable reasons, BNs don't check various bubbled maps, so bubbles stay there for an eternity. In the past (somewhere between 2010-2012), we campaigned to clean off all the bubbles whether by ranking or popping, and succeeded for a few hours. However, that obviously does not hold true now, so I wanted to ask, what do bubbles mean to you as modders, BNs, etc now. Do you still have the old definitions in your head? Is there some new definition I haven't heard of? Is there something else I'm missing? I'll let you all decide.
Aurele
The definition of a bubble for me is quite similar to you.

A bubble-icon represent a map that is ready to be ranked/qualified. It's a mark to stand-up from the other beatmaps. It is also a sign of priority for other BN to look at the map in a matter of time to move forward into ranking or qualifying. If it doesn't meet the BN's criteria, they are free to leave it to another BN, but they should not be scared of having their opinion and act accordingly to the situation.

What I don't understand from the process, is why does it takes so much time for a map to be "bubbled"? Same goes for beatmaps that were sitting in a bubbled state for months. Is it because the quality criteria is set too high?
Living Flower

Gabe wrote:

The definition of a bubble for me is quite similar to you.

A bubble-icon represent a map that is ready to be ranked/qualified. It's a mark to stand-up from the other beatmaps. It is also a sign of priority for other BN to look at the map in a matter of time to move forward into ranking or qualifying. If it doesn't meet the BN's criteria, they are free to leave it to another BN, but they should not be scared of having their opinion and act accordingly to the situation.

What I don't understand from the process, is why does it takes so much time for a map to be "bubbled"? Same goes for beatmaps that were sitting in a bubbled state for months. Is it because the quality criteria is set too high?
or maybe the bn's got a real life and no time to check all maps? /runs
Topic Starter
blissfulyoshi

Living Flower wrote:

or maybe the bn's got a real life and no time to check all maps? /runs
I think we all agree that modding takes a lot of time, but for a new mapper, it takes longer than it does in the past to get their map bubbled and qualified. Why is that? What can be done about it? How will that affect the meaning of a bubble?
Endaris
It's not just getting bubbles.
The incentive to mod other people's maps is incredibly low if you don't have a lot of freetime, hence M4M is booming.
And newbies are unattractive for M4M as they lack the knowledge and practical experience to contribute something major. Same for guest difficulties.
I was once offered a Normal GD for example and the maphost knew that I was inexperienced - as soon as I sent my GD I was told it was not good enough and slow down the ranking progress too much. Rejected and thrown out, yay. Not to mention that most popular mappers apparently get drowned in GD requests in the very moment they submit a single-diff map below marathon length. There is no incentive to bring up a newb when you got the choice.
That suggests circlejerking and the people willing to help anyone regardless can't even remotely handle the amount.

In the end there's just no other way of getting a BN look at your map than spamming them which actually sucks for the BNs just as much as for the people needing or believing to need one.
=> You either need to be active and stay on their toes or you need personal connections which seems to be the staff-approved way right now.
That's terrible in my opinion. Personally I think the Kudosu rework I proposed could improve the situation but naturally none gave the slightest fuck. Probably because none reads in the Dev-forum and maybe also because I'm a person that is convenient to ignore at times or something of both.
Oh well.

//rant
Topic Starter
blissfulyoshi

Endaris wrote:

It's not just getting bubbles.
The incentive to mod other people's maps is incredibly low if you don't have a lot of freetime, hence M4M is booming.
And newbies are unattractive for M4M as they lack the knowledge and practical experience to contribute something major. Same for guest difficulties
Fully agree.

Endaris wrote:

I was once offered a Normal GD for example and the maphost knew that I was inexperienced - as soon as I sent my GD I was told it was not good enough and slow down the ranking progress too much. Rejected and thrown out, yay. Not to mention that most popular mappers apparently get drowned in GD requests in the very moment they submit a single-diff map below marathon length. There is no incentive to bring up a newb when you got the choice.
That suggests circlejerking and the people willing to help anyone regardless can't even remotely handle the amount.
As a slight correction, most of the fast sets with a lot of GDs are made by mappers who ask their mapper friends to GD because mapping a whole set takes a long time. With the rise of Discord and various other similar tools, making your own clique/circle is now easier than ever. You can call this circlejerking, but it is what it is.

Endaris wrote:

In the end there's just no other way of getting a BN look at your map than spamming them which actually sucks for the BNs just as much as for the people needing or believing to need one.
=> You either need to be active and stay on their toes or you need personal connections which seems to be the staff-approved way right now.
That's terrible in my opinion. Personally I think the Kudosu rework I proposed could improve the situation but naturally none gave the slightest fuck. Probably because none reads in the Dev-forum and maybe also because I'm a person that is convenient to ignore at times or something of both.
Oh well.

//rant
I'll try to read through the proposal if I have time, but from what I noticed, General Questions is a very dead forum except for a very niche community. Moving stuff like Proposals to Feature Request greatly increases the number of replies. But remember, the vastly different community there ensures very different replies than what you would get here.
Living Flower

blissfulyoshi wrote:

Living Flower wrote:

or maybe the bn's got a real life and no time to check all maps? /runs
I think we all agree that modding takes a lot of time, but for a new mapper, it takes longer than it does in the past to get their map bubbled and qualified. Why is that? What can be done about it? How will that affect the meaning of a bubble?
It but that's what I'm hearing. I've got a ctb map ready for bubble (a Qat helped me and told me it's good enough for qualified if I find a BN who bubbles it) and after 4 months I still haven't found one, because they saying they got a real life, there are more other maps, I'm not "experienced enough", and the same goes for even simple mods.


Edit: how about to split bn's and QAT's responsibilities into 2 pieces - one half is for the already experienced mappers/more common mappers and the other half is for "newbies" only. And also how about take a look back at the current bn's and forcing them more on their responsibilities. Because I know, that some mode-specific bn's (won't call-out anybody) don't going with their mode, but with those, where they haven't even passed the bn-test. So why aren't they on their mode? Why aren't they kicked? And there are also some very well experienced mappers, why don't they teach other newer mappers/help them out. I mean, mapping cycle, good, but what about those people, who haven't picked but still willing to improve on mapping?

I mean, well taught people = better map qualities = lower need to mod = less workaround = less work for bn's = more time for helping people = etc

Or am I wrong there?

I mean, it isn't the case, that we are any kind of community >.>
Topic Starter
blissfulyoshi

Living Flower wrote:

Edit: how about to split bn's and QAT's responsibilities into 2 pieces - one half is for the already experienced mappers/more common mappers and the other half is for "newbies" only.
Well, it is not me you have to convince, for better or worse. However, you can read Loctav's view on the BN group here p/5818982

Living Flower wrote:

And there are also some very well experienced mappers, why don't they teach other newer mappers/help them out. I mean, mapping cycle, good, but what about those people, who haven't picked but still willing to improve on mapping?

I mean, well taught people = better map qualities = lower need to mod = less workaround = less work for bn's = more time for helping people = etc

Or am I wrong there?

I mean, it isn't the case, that we are any kind of community >.>
Mentorship is a large time commitment, but they have released plenty of guides like t/560704 for everyone else to learn off of. There are also plenty of older guides, pishi's videos, and what not if you truly want to learn. There are also places like #modhelp and #ctb where you can go ask for live help.

On the other hand, having the few number of BNs we have, does not scale to the increasing size of the mapping community, so no they'll never have enough time to help everyone.
Living Flower

blissfulyoshi wrote:

Living Flower wrote:

Edit: how about to split bn's and QAT's responsibilities into 2 pieces - one half is for the already experienced mappers/more common mappers and the other half is for "newbies" only.
Well, it is not me you have to convince, for better or worse. However, you can read Loctav's view on the BN group here p/5818982
I know that most people saying, that bn's doing it on their free time, but who isn't doing osu!stuff on their free time, either? But those people, who applied as BN took up some kind of responsibilities, like board moderators, board admins, etc. Same goes for QAT's. And when they can't handle the weighting of the time, they need to Call-up more modders for being a BN or leave the BN state. Sounds harsh, but it's just the truth.

blissfulyoshi wrote:

Mentorship is a large time commitment, but they have released plenty of guides like t/560704 for everyone else to learn off of. There are also plenty of older guides, pishi's videos, and what not if you truly want to learn. There are also places like #modhelp and #ctb where you can go ask for live help.
I already took looks on tutorials, here on the board, YouTube, pishifat, etc. But when I can't see me improving, but don't know how to solve problems, because I'm getting no mods although asking in thousands of queues etc, it isn't that helpful at all. I already asked in many queues (most of them are also m4m, what's pitiful, since a bad mapper can't be an okay~ish modder), in meme I mean mod-help, mod-request and so on. Already pm'ed lots of already experienced mappers/modders, too.

It can't be that "newbies" (I mean, I'm trying since 6 (!!!) years to get into mapping) are left alone with that stuff that much!
Battle
I checked all the bubbles when I first got bn but none of the songs interested me and if the song did, the map wasn't interesting to me so I left them alone lol
Topic Starter
blissfulyoshi

Living Flower wrote:

I know that most people saying, that bn's doing it on their free time, but who isn't doing osu!stuff on their free time, either? But those people, who applied as BN took up some kind of responsibilities, like board moderators, board admins, etc. Same goes for QAT's. And when they can't handle the weighting of the time, they need to Call-up more modders for being a BN or leave the BN state. Sounds harsh, but it's just the truth.
I agree, but as I stated before, I have no say on this. You can try pushing your idea on feature request to show the existance of the problem, but as you now, BNs and QATs aren't paid for their work. They are just given some extra power beyond a normal user. Asking to do things they hate is a quick way to burn them out and ask them to retire. If you want to fix the number of BNs complain to the admins.

Living Flower wrote:

I already took looks on tutorials, here on the board, YouTube, pishifat, etc. But when I can't see me improving, but don't know how to solve problems, because I'm getting no mods although asking in thousands of queues etc, it isn't that helpful at all. I already asked in many queues (most of them are also m4m, what's pitiful, since a bad mapper can't be an okay~ish modder), in meme I mean mod-help, mod-request and so on. Already pm'ed lots of already experienced mappers/modders, too.

It can't be that "newbies" (I mean, I'm trying since 6 (!!!) years to get into mapping) are left alone with that stuff that much!
I agree it is silly, but how would you propose fixing it? As for yourself, just try modding for free for now. You learn a lot in your first few mods about what you think makes a good map.

Battle wrote:

I checked all the bubbles when I first got bn but none of the songs interested me and if the song did, the map wasn't interesting to me so I left them alone lol
Thanks for being truthful, and I believe your behavior toward bubbles as perfectly fine given the circumstances. I hope being a BN didn't burn you out too much.
Stjpa

blissfulyoshi wrote:

A bubble is an icon that says a map is ready to be qualified. This does 2 things, signal another BN to check the work and scares away random modders from checking the map in fear of popping it. However, for various understandable reasons, BNs don't check various bubbled maps, so bubbles stay there for an eternity.
Every BN has their own definition of "quality", that means that they all have their own standards of what they think is good or bad. Back then most maps were really simple and didn't try out something special (sliderart, or just concepts in general) and the quality threshold was lower in general, so it was not too hard to catch up the quality requirement to map something that can be ranked. Nowadays we have a way higher quality requirement in general and not only that, people are trying out a lot of stuff so they obviously can't satisfy every BN with their creation.
And like Battle already said, pretty much every map that is bubbled right now isn't really interesting (for me, obviously) so I don't check them, as we are not supposed to nominate everything that is just fine for ranked but rather nominate maps we really like.


Gabe wrote:

Same goes for beatmaps that were sitting in a bubbled state for months. Is it because the quality criteria is set too high?
Because the mapper doesn't approach every mapper they could approach and don't put enough effort into trying to rank their work. And yeah, the quality criteria and the BNs opinion play a really big role as well, as I already mentioned above.


Living Flower wrote:

or maybe the bn's got a real life and no time to check all maps? /runs
Quite a lot of people indeed think that BNs are modding machines that don't do anything else, but honestly we also want to map stuff, to play osu ourselves or play other games. Not to forget that there's also a real life. And reading everywhere how lazy or shit the ranking system is because of the "lazy" BNs can be really demotivating, but people don't think about how the BNs feel when reading that stuff and then wonder why they can't their map ranked...


Endaris wrote:

In the end there's just no other way of getting a BN look at your map than spamming them which actually sucks for the BNs just as much as for the people needing or believing to need one.
=> You either need to be active and stay on their toes or you need personal connections which seems to be the staff-approved way right now.
That's not completely true. While it's correct for some BNs, some others don't care about the maps of their friends if it's not something special. If people would put a lot more effort into their maps (like trying to make it really unique with a cool concept or something instead of just following the meta blatantly) or at least get less GDs because most of the time the mapper only makes like 20% of the set or something, things probably would be different now.

But anyway, why do you need your map to ranked as soon as possible? Why don't you try to improve it even more by self-modding, looking at other good maps to see if there's anything special you could implement in your map? It's just sad to see that even completely new mappers think that their map is ready for the ranked section after only two months and not even 3 pages of mods in their beatmaps thread. I don't know how long a new mapper needs to rank a map now if they tryhard really hard on it (instead of just giving up after two months, which seems to be the case sometimes as I've seen), so it's hard to judge if it got worse or not.


Living Flower wrote:

It but that's what I'm hearing. I've got a ctb map ready for bubble (a Qat helped me and told me it's good enough for qualified if I find a BN who bubbles it) and after 4 months I still haven't found one, because they saying they got a real life, there are more other maps, I'm not "experienced enough", and the same goes for even simple mods.
Just because one guy told you that it might be ready for ranked it doesn't mean it needs to be there as soon as possible. Not only that, like I already mentioned everyone has a different definition of quality, and if you still struggle getting it ranked after whole 4 months, then you either don't try hard enough or the map is simply not good enough to convince a BN to nominate it. Also, if you are trying to get into the community for already 6 years and still didn't manage to rank a map, shouldn't you be aware that it isn't the fault of the game / community / system or whatever but actually your fault by probably not trying hard enough? Other people only take half a year or maybe a year, you can't tell us that they just were lucky because a lot of people manage to do it in this timeframe.


And like blussfulyoshi also said, the mapping community is really huge and we aren't even that many BNs to work up all that stuff, let alone that a good amount of people keep ranting everywhere which can also be a reason to not nominate a map (because seriously, who wants to help a guy who doesn't do anything else than flaming people?).
And after all, please don't judge BNs at all if you haven't been a BN, because your perspective on it will change drastically after knowing how it actually is to be one.
Endaris

Stjpa wrote:

Endaris wrote:

In the end there's just no other way of getting a BN look at your map than spamming them which actually sucks for the BNs just as much as for the people needing or believing to need one.
=> You either need to be active and stay on their toes or you need personal connections which seems to be the staff-approved way right now.
That's not completely true. While it's correct for some BNs, some others don't care about the maps of their friends if it's not something special. If people would put a lot more effort into their maps (like trying to make it really unique with a cool concept or something instead of just following the meta blatantly) or at least get less GDs because most of the time the mapper only makes like 20% of the set or something, things probably would be different now.

But anyway, why do you need your map to ranked as soon as possible? Why don't you try to improve it even more by self-modding, looking at other good maps to see if there's anything special you could implement in your map? It's just sad to see that even completely new mappers think that their map is ready for the ranked section after only two months and not even 3 pages of mods in their beatmaps thread. I don't know how long a new mapper needs to rank a map now if they tryhard really hard on it (instead of just giving up after two months, which seems to be the case sometimes as I've seen), so it's hard to judge if it got worse or not.
Just to avoid misunderstandings...because you picked a fragment of my post and replied to it out of context.

It wasn't about ranking as fast as possible. It was about getting a look at any point of time.
Fact is, unless you're somehow established in the mapping scene (and sometimes even then) the chances of a BN randomly checking your map is close to zero because there is nothing that indicates if a map is any good - only the check of a competent modder can tell. Incidently BNs have "competent modder" printed on their forehead. Many people are already happy with good feedback which is sometimes hard to get.
Actively pursuing BNs is the fastest way and if you don't do that, chances are that your map will never be checked.
This sucks because it puts the pursuit of BNs in the foreground - even if you say so, it's doubtable that good maps will be found without the mapper taking action. The main reason for that is exactly that BNs get flooded by requests. They rarely have much time to randomly check maps that way.
(also please notice how i specifically wrote "believe to need one" because it is often not the case - you don't have to tell me that)

At the same time mappers have no other way of getting recognition for their map. This makes it a vicious circle. It puts more stress on BNs than necessary and doesn't benefit the community either.
What mappers need is a way to get recognition for their map without annoying BNs in order to positively influence the workflow of ranking and most of all(!) mapping and modding.
Topic Starter
blissfulyoshi

Stjpa wrote:

Every BN has their own definition of "quality", that means that they all have their own standards of what they think is good or bad. Back then most maps were really simple and didn't try out something special (sliderart, or just concepts in general) and the quality threshold was lower in general, so it was not too hard to catch up the quality requirement to map something that can be ranked. Nowadays we have a way higher quality requirement in general and not only that, people are trying out a lot of stuff so they obviously can't satisfy every BN with their creation.
And like Battle already said, pretty much every map that is bubbled right now isn't really interesting (for me, obviously) so I don't check them, as we are not supposed to nominate everything that is just fine for ranked but rather nominate maps we really like.
I would contest that quality today is lower than at some points in the past, but that is not the point of this discussion. Incriminating BNs is also going to solve nothing as it is fully understandable that you don't want to mod a bubble for whatever reason it may be.

However, as it stands, stagnant bubbles have issues of basically freezing a map to be excluded by mods but also not given any special incentive to move the map along. As a result of that, before attempting to solve the problem, I want to understand what bubbles mean to people because as you stated, they obviously don't mean quality to you.

Edit: On the flip side, remember, for those that don't realize this, popping a bubble means work since you need to point out why the bubble should be popped, debate with the mapper and/or bubbler about why your reasoning is correct, etc. Basically extra work a BN who has limited interest in a map would care to do.
Stjpa

Endaris wrote:

Fact is, unless you're somehow established in the mapping scene (and sometimes even then) the chances of a BN randomly checking your map is close to zero because there is nothing that indicates if a map is any good - only the check of a competent modder can tell. Incidently BNs have "competent modder" printed on their forehead. Many people are already happy with good feedback which is sometimes hard to get.
Ok, and where's the problem? You act like there are no professional modder other than BNs in the whole community. A lot of people in the mapping community, let it be mappers, modders or whatever can help you out by explaining stuff, however the only thing people do is writing a forum message to BNs and hoping that they will get a respone or a mod. But why that? Why not looking for a known mapper who definitely has less stress because he can tell you exactly the same stuff? Asking the BNs why your map is not good enough for qualified can help as well because that's something literally no one does (at least it didn't happen to me once in my 6 year BN career so far). So tl;dr: there are tons of people who can help you out if you are willing to socialize, but instead you think it's necessary to pursuit BNs all the time to achieve something, which is a wrong mindset.

Endaris wrote:

This sucks because it puts the pursuit of BNs in the foreground - even if you say so, it's doubtable that good maps will be found without the mapper taking action. The main reason for that is exactly that BNs get flooded by requests. They rarely have much time to randomly check maps that way.
Except that the majority of BNs looks at every map because there's always the chance that it's a really cool map...

blissfulyoshi wrote:

I would contest that quality today is lower than at some points in the past, but that is not the point of this discussion. Incriminating BNs is also going to solve nothing as it is fully understandable that you don't want to mod a bubble for whatever reason it may be. However, as it stands, stagnant bubbles have issues of basically freezing a map to be excluded by mods but also not given any special incentive to move the map along. As a result of that, before attempting to solve the problem, I want to understand what bubbles mean to people because as you stated, they obviously don't mean quality to you.
Subjectively maps may be worse than older maps, but objectively they are by far better. The major problem is that people don't look for mods after they got the first bubble because they think their map is great as it is and they definitely only need the second BN, nothing else. I haven't encountered a guy who was looking for normal mods for their bubbled maps so far at least.
Topic Starter
blissfulyoshi

Stjpa wrote:

The major problem is that people don't look for mods after they got the first bubble because they think their map is great as it is and they definitely only need the second BN, nothing else. I haven't encountered a guy who was looking for normal mods for their bubbled maps so far at least.
This is the reason I made the thread. There is a big discrepancy about what a bubble means among people. As I stated in the op, bubbles to a lot of us mean that a map is ready to be qualified. To you, it does not.

Also, is seeking more mods always the right answer? As the saying goes, too many cooks spoil the broth. By the time they reach their first bubble, they have presumably gotten a fair number of mods and are happy with how their map is. They can defend every decision made in the map, but you still won't like it. However, I would dearly hope that the first BN liked the map enough to think it was qualifiable.
vipto
There clearly is a line between maps simply being held back by the ranking process and maps that still need improvement. I am not saying "do away with the ranking process", but what i am saying is that for some mappers the modding/bubbling/ranking part of a map is really tiresome. When your maps reach a certain point where there basically isnt a lot to change/mod it's just a waste of time really, for the BN and the mapper likewise.

To answer your original question, a bubble feels to me like a "foot in the door" for me. When i decide to push a set to ranked it's basically like a green flag so i can go an bug more BNs with "hey i got this map bubbled".
-Makishima S-
Issue #1 - Modding and moders

Reminds me real life situation: You try to find work - everyone expect from you experience but nobody wants to provide it to you since... everyone already request from you to be experienced from time and space. Same goes here towards moders: Someone new have no ground to learn how to mod properly since, nobody care to give them "job", especially more experienced mappers who wants to speed-rank their maps and only request mods from their "friends" (props for Pishi who actually one day gave me job and provided knowledge, one of not many who care to teach).

Going from this side - hard to get map modded properly since from my observation - mods from newbies are treated as "garbage", not counting, not existing in eyes of BN/QAT so you need million of mods to actually get something.

How to solve it?

There is initiative to help new mappers to be better. Maybe make one for moders? Let them learn something, give them some kind of "test" at the end, let them obtain some kind of recommendation that "THIS guy actually know something and his mod can be treated as pretty valid".

Issue #2 - BN

They have real life. Like everyone does. They do mods, checks in their free time, for free but:

If you apply for position what require from you to do something in your free time, you will to do things, you are supposed to do this. Long time ago i willed to help in PvPGN and i done my part despite having job, real life, i spent my free time on this. Just an example.

Right now BNs are like - priority for known mappers - Monstrata etc... "fuck new mappers", they are at the end of line IF some BN have last piece of time to look for their maps, it still mostly ends with "nuke this, garbage map", mostly without even looking for it (this comes from one of osu! BN, my personal conversation with him, cannot provide name, promised). For example - same map posted by known mapper and unknown mapper:
- Known mapper will rank it in 1 to 3 months.
- Unknown will need from 6 to 12 months.
How it is right? It isn't, right, but it's reality of actual ranking process and lack of interest in new mappers.

Bubble

Right now... just push map foward into qualified state, nothing else. It had meaning when mappers wasn't divided into "new" and "known". It had meaning when maps were trully quality and not pushed "by friends" into ranking (I just don't want to point out "certain" maps which are garbage in eyes of most players but still ranked).

Just my opinion.
Maxus

[Taiga] wrote:

Issue #1 - Modding and moders

Reminds me real life situation: You try to find work - everyone expect from you experience but nobody wants to provide it to you since... everyone already request from you to be experienced from time and space. Same goes here towards moders: Someone new have no ground to learn how to mod properly since, nobody care to give them "job", especially more experienced mappers who wants to speed-rank their maps and only request mods from their "friends" (props for Pishi who actually one day gave me job and provided knowledge, one of not many who care to teach).

Going from this side - hard to get map modded properly since from my observation - mods from newbies are treated as "garbage", not counting, not existing in eyes of BN/QAT so you need million of mods to actually get something.

How to solve it?

There is initiative to help new mappers to be better. Maybe make one for moders? Let them learn something, give them some kind of "test" at the end, let them obtain some kind of recommendation that "THIS guy actually know something and his mod can be treated as pretty valid".

I think the problem isn't rely on whether no one bothers to give new modder "a job" ... I'm looking at many modding queue from various modes, and queue that offered NM is immediately get flooded by request.. no matter if they are new or not tbh.. there's plenty of chances for new guys to actually learn from their experience in their modding towards other people's map OR looking at other people's mod to see how it actually works for mod to be of "high quality" and can be more acceptable for wide range of mappers. But from my modes alone (mania) , the queue pretty much dead and many people expecting their maps to be NM'ed instead of actually putting effort in modding other people to learn something.. I think the problem is that the new people just don't bother to actually going through the learning curve process tbh..

It isn't like new modder's mod are treated as "garbage" , but as you said, they still haven't enough experience to actually can convey whether of what experience mappers actually want.. and it's not only from new modder's mod tbh.. but experience modder's mod can also get majority of their mod rejected if each of mapper and modder's perspective differ one another.. but with how ranking process works now, mod now HAVE to be replied everytime.. and the feedback on why it got rejected gives you an actual value on how you can increase your knowledge on how proper mod should be (providing that the new guys don't actually only mod something like "blanket blanket" , etc.)

If you're talking about "help new mappers to be better" , there's already community mentorship program existed out there ... :/ and it really provides new mapper a big help of making themselves better, it just comes out to the new guys whether they bother to actually sign them up and having something to learn from it..
I still think you got wrong idea if you expect other people to always want to help new people.. new mappers will always exist everyday, everytime, whatever.. If they really have passion to actually pouring their effort through mapping/modding, then they are the one that supposed to approach more experienced people to know much more and make themselves better through each steps they are making.. it's how it works everywhere..


Issue #2 - BN

They have real life. Like everyone does. They do mods, checks in their free time, for free but:

If you apply for position what require from you to do something in your free time, you will to do things, you are supposed to do this. Long time ago i willed to help in PvPGN and i done my part despite having job, real life, i spent my free time on this. Just an example.

Right now BNs are like - priority for known mappers - Monstrata etc... "fuck new mappers", they are at the end of line IF some BN have last piece of time to look for their maps, it still mostly ends with "nuke this, garbage map", mostly without even looking for it (this comes from one of osu! BN, my personal conversation with him, cannot provide name, promised). For example - same map posted by known mapper and unknown mapper:
- Known mapper will rank it in 1 to 3 months.
- Unknown will need from 6 to 12 months.
How it is right? It isn't, right, but it's reality of actual ranking process and lack of interest in new mappers.

i don't know why many people assume that new mappers often not get chance to rank their maps.. at least from what i see now, new mappers have it really easier to rank their thing.. people just feel irk of someone that rank things more frequently lol.
I will go through stints that from my experience helping new mapper either in their bubble/ qualifying map, they are either : 1) only applying things from their mod without self initiative to self mod things that obviously can be improvable , which is a must when you are still learning 2) tend to give up really quickly.. they abandon their map when i adress my objective concern towards their map, and now my effort in checking that more or less in vain. 3) don't really bother to learn things and just want to rank things.. as Stjpa said in earlier post.. the number of people that asking how things can be improvable is really minimal compared with people that ask for immediate check.. which is saddening.

We're still doing this for sure, but does it mean that i have to risked myself everytime getting asshole replies or attitude from someone's that i don't know? checking thing is a long time process, people still do not get it until now.. the only time they supposed to ask bn for icon process is when the map is truly ready, but many seems to only handed out their maps when they don't really even pay attention to everything they need to prepare.. if you think BNs have to always pinpoint everything that the mappers carelessly do, you got an entirely wrong idea since the mappers are the one that has to ensure all of these already correct as it is.. we serve to make sure the map already well done for ranking thing, not modding from 50% ready to 100% ready.

Do you want to say people that already putting effort through their creation to be pushed for rank for a long time, hence being a well-known mapper has to rank the thing more or less the same timeframe as the one that just got into mapping? i don't know what to say honestly.. lol.


Bubble

Right now... just push map foward into qualified state, nothing else. It had meaning when mappers wasn't divided into "new" and "known". It had meaning when maps were trully quality and not pushed "by friends" into ranking (I just don't want to point out "certain" maps which are garbage in eyes of most players but still ranked).
lmaoooo.. it's already well established by many others in the first page thread that BNs have their own personal preference of what the map stands for them.. If one BN find that the current bubbled doesn't hold sufficient standard for them to be ranked, then they can simply walk out instead of doing long ass mod to make it hold standard quality.. as i already said before, BN serves as a purpose to make sure the map already well done, not modding from 50% to 100% lol.

Just my opinion.
well, I know i'm like repeating some of the statement before, but i feel like i need to remind people that instead of complaining of "well known mapper gets all while others get none" , why not to be more active in community not only in mapping, but actually modding and actually put effort to be socializing with many kinds of people? I already state earlier that while new people like to give assumption about BNs don't pay attention to new mappers, we as a BN can also see from another aspect that new mappers don't really trying to putting enough effort in improving their map, be more active in community or even try to "advertise" their map in front of community, it is what it is.

Back to topic, my meaning of bubble? it is already approved by ONE of other BNs , just it. I simply look at it as the map without the icon...
-Makishima S-
why not to be more active in community not only in mapping, but actually modding and actually put effort to be socializing with many kinds of people?
When you see situation like... you do mod in 2015, mapper is very active, desperately search for BN/QAT and gets dick into mouth... and his map gets ranked in Q3 of 2016 because *cought* new BNs got added and someone was interested in ranking his map... you don't feel like joining this or even bother to make your own map. It's discouraging. Situations like that stay in memory.

Few words about "standard quality":

Pushing through ranking maps which contain unjustified, not fitting to song theme difficulty spikes isn't a "quality". It's favorizing and it was proved already that certain mappers use "friends" to push their maps. You cannot deny this.

I am just glad that ranking criteria got updated and maybe time of "pp 1-2-1-2" and other this kind of thing will end quickly. I just wish partial BN will get fired and impartial members will nuke this maps, no matter if this is mr xxyyzz or it's Monstrata (nothing personal, just example).

Anyway, gotta still observe, maybe one day gonna dig up some old creations of mine and submit.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply