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[Proposal] Taiko ruleset draft (General)

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Topic Starter
Raiden
Hello there! After some time of discussion within the people involved in the United Beat-Knights of Ranking Criteria, we have come to an agreement to set a draft for the new rules and guidelines for osu!taiko. Notice this is NOT the final result, as we need the feedback of the community first before getting it officially bumped into the wiki.

Frequently Asked Questions

(read this in all cases before posting)

  1. Is it necessary to read the entire draft before commenting or asking questions?
    -> Yes, else you may complain about/mention things that are not related to this draft or are actually already present here.
  2. Is this the entire new Ranking Criteria? I feel like this is missing a lot of things...
    -> This is not the entire Ranking Criteria. This draft aims to replace the rules and guidelines currently in effect on the osu!taiko-specific Ranking Criteria.
  3. To which difficulties does this criteria apply?
    -> All osu!taiko difficulties. This draft aims to replace the content on the osu!taiko-specific Ranking Criteria. There will be a difficulty-specific part which will apply to the different difficulty levels that osu!taiko currently has.
Before posting, please think through if what you want to add belongs into the difficulty-specific draft or the general Ranking Criteria. Thanks!

Access the draft here!


Revision of this draft ends on the 18th of September 2017! Make sure to drop your feedback by until then!
Okoratu
just asking the question here, as many probably won't guess from this draft: yes this allows consecutive 1/4 finishers or finishers in the middle of streams for ranking.

Do you think you need a guideline against jackhammering then or do you think this should stay as is and just wait and see what people do to it?

- sry the thought just crossed my mind just now and not like 6 hours ago -
Niko-nyan
The base Slider Velocity should be 1.40 throughout all difficulties of a mapset. This is to ensure optimal quantity of notes on the playfield, as well as the optimal distance of separation between different notes.
This isn't fair if a new player play like 225 bpm (without DT) and the Slider Velocity is 1.40 for Kantan and Futsuu so make some exceptional for certain BPM requirement.

also about Slider Velocity's overlap like on kiai's end it changed to x0.6 for example right on the last note of kiai and it is overlap as slowdown maybe you need to add this too.

*still thinking about the rest*
karterfreak
  1. A note must not overlap more than 50% of the upcoming note(s).
This still concerns me as I feel it is extremely limiting on low SV sections. Having it so that it must be easily discernible whether a note is a don or a kat would make more sense (i.e: don't allow overlap to the point where you can't tell what the following notes are at all / their colour isn't visible) as a hard rule to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent here though so correct me if i'm not understanding properly.
Nofool
^ same, this rule should either be changed to what he said or be a guideline instead

also raiden you told me rule 1 included finishers but i still don't get in what way it disallows finishers in middle of streams or idk
and yeah this should be written, common sense isn't a thing here
Okoratu
because it doesn't, after a lot of discussion they decided the only way to get new ideas and concepts into this mode is by allowing them lol
Nofool

Okorin wrote:

because it doesn't, after a lot of discussion they decided the only way to get new ideas and concepts into this mode is by allowing them lol
them => allowing big notes to be used in any sort of ways, aka full big notes stream, may it even contains 1/6 etc

well nvm he wrote this wasnt the entire thing which means he is keeping the big note restriction rule from the previous RC zzz
almost trolled
DakeDekaane

Niko-nyan wrote:

This isn't fair if a new player play like 225 bpm (without DT) and the Slider Velocity is 1.40 for Kantan and Futsuu so make some exceptional for certain BPM requirement.
It is completely fair, and it's more recommended to do. If you use a lower SV, more notes will appear on playfield and new players would just get lost.

Tasha wrote:

This still concerns me as I feel it is extremely limiting on low SV sections. Having it so that it must be easily discernible whether a note is a don or a kat would make more sense (i.e: don't allow overlap to the point where you can't tell what the following notes are at all / their colour isn't visible) as a hard rule to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent here though so correct me if i'm not understanding properly.
I'm all for supporting this, iirc the argument is that low SV disturbs gameplay (correct me if I'm wrong), which I do not agree with. Probably making use of the "effective SV" term would do too.
Surono

Okorin wrote:

because it doesn't, after a lot of discussion they decided the only way to get new ideas and concepts into this mode is by allowing them lol
at least between 80 ~ 85bpm or not exceed, even use DT it still able to hit I guess (with singletapping). finisher in the middle/begining of stream its really... still wont to use it bcus we know people will dislike that. I ever map pattern like Kdd 1/4 BPM80 bcus it just 1 exist and think it fine for rank

depends beatsnap n bpm
w didnt realis, nofool post was refreshd..
Topic Starter
Raiden

Niko-nyan wrote:

This isn't fair if a new player play like 225 bpm (without DT) and the Slider Velocity is 1.40 for Kantan and Futsuu so make some exceptional for certain BPM requirement.

also about Slider Velocity's overlap like on kiai's end it changed to x0.6 for example right on the last note of kiai and it is overlap as slowdown maybe you need to add this too.

*still thinking about the rest*
This would probably be material for the Difficulty-specific criteria draft.

Tasha wrote:

This still concerns me as I feel it is extremely limiting on low SV sections. Having it so that it must be easily discernible whether a note is a don or a kat would make more sense (i.e: don't allow overlap to the point where you can't tell what the following notes are at all / their colour isn't visible) as a hard rule to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent here though so correct me if i'm not understanding properly.
However where do you set the readability limit? As a rule, you cannot have it subjectively measured. With some drawing (props to _Gezo_) we figured having 50% as a rule would make it easier to set the limit and for modders to know where the limit is. Slow SV is still allowed and 50% overlap is pretty much what 1.40 SV 1/8 notes do, so it is still pretty big. Anything more than that you could argue that 98% overal is still readable as you can see 1 red/blue pixel inside of the white border of the notes.

Nofool wrote:

them => allowing big notes to be used in any sort of ways, aka full big notes stream, may it even contains 1/6 etc

well nvm he wrote this wasnt the entire thing which means he is keeping the big note restriction rule from the previous RC zzz
almost trolled
We are not keeping any rule nor guideline of the old RC if it would in any case overlap with the current one in discussion. Remember that this one is going to take priority over the old RC. So yes, it would remove it and allow mid stream finishers as long as it fits rule 1.
(also it'd be nice not to use the pronoun he or him too much since this was a work of multiple people not just me XD)

Thanks for the feedback and please keep it coming
Stefan
If Slider Velocity changes are in use, they should be corresponding to pacing changes in the song. That means not speeding up calm parts, or slowing down fast paced parts of a song.
Uh.. I mean it's an obvious thing but I've seen so many cases where SV in-/decreases are used weirdly, this sounds too vague for the current moment. While other things are a standard (using 1,40x SV, proper Kiai usage, etc.), this point is less helping and feels like it scares people away of trying things.
Topic Starter
Raiden

Stefan wrote:

Uh.. I mean it's an obvious thing but I've seen so many cases where SV in-/decreases are used weirdly, this sounds too vague for the current moment. While other things are a standard (using 1,40x SV, proper Kiai usage, etc.), this point is less helping and feels like it scares people away of trying things.
I don't understand your concern here. Do you mean this would be too restrictive (e.g. totally disallowing people to use fast SV on calmer parts of a song?)

If that's the case, there is a reason why it is a guideline and may be broken under some circumstances and after thorough explanation has been given by the mapper.
Stefan

Raiden wrote:

I don't understand your concern here. Do you mean this would be too restrictive (e.g. totally disallowing people to use fast SV on calmer parts of a song?)

If that's the case, there is a reason why it is a guideline and may be broken under some circumstances and after thorough explanation has been given by the mapper.
Well, it goes in that direction. and I know things which aren't suitable like that, should be fixed during the modding process. However, I am not sure how strict this is treaten at all.
PatZar

Raiden wrote:

[*]Kiai time should be only used for the chorus or emphasized parts of a song. Kiai flashes/short kiais are discouraged for several reasons: they disturb the gameplay experience, especially on low-end PC users, and can cause trouble for epileptic users.

really?, in my skin when kiai comes it doesn't show any flashes, it depends with user's skins, i can upload those skins into this thread (pm me when necessary).
but yes, it disturbs the gameplay when kiai shows lmao, that's why im using transparent kiais

you wrote:

If Slider Velocity changes are in use, they should be corresponding to pacing changes in the song. That means not speeding up calm parts, or slowing down fast paced parts of a song.
to be honest, Slider Velocity should be used when its necessary, for example when pitch/instruments are come down and down, for best choose is increase a bit SV to get more and better experiences when playing, i don't agree with this one, but yes, sometime its a bit hard when playing, but the timeline is better rather than not using any Slider Velocity (in this case it means plain for me)
Topic Starter
Raiden

PatZar wrote:

really?, in my skin when kiai comes it doesn't show any flashes, it depends with user's skins, i can upload those skins into this thread (pm me when necessary).
but yes, it disturbs the gameplay when kiai shows lmao, that's why im using transparent kiais
All rules/guideliens are set for Default skin, though.

to be honest, Slider Velocity should be used when its necessary, for example when pitch/instruments are come down and down, for best choose is increase a bit SV to get more and better experiences when playing, i don't agree with this one, but yes, sometime its a bit hard when playing, but the timeline is better rather than not using any Slider Velocity (in this case it means plain for me)
That's exactly what the guideline implies, "when pitch/instruments are come down and down" means the song's pace is slowing down and you are using an SV according to this pacing change.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something?

Thanks for posting!
karterfreak

Raiden wrote:

Tasha wrote:

This still concerns me as I feel it is extremely limiting on low SV sections. Having it so that it must be easily discernible whether a note is a don or a kat would make more sense (i.e: don't allow overlap to the point where you can't tell what the following notes are at all / their colour isn't visible) as a hard rule to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent here though so correct me if i'm not understanding properly.
However where do you set the readability limit? As a rule, you cannot have it subjectively measured. With some drawing (props to _Gezo_) we figured having 50% as a rule would make it easier to set the limit and for modders to know where the limit is. Slow SV is still allowed and 50% overlap is pretty much what 1.40 SV 1/8 notes do, so it is still pretty big. Anything more than that you could argue that 98% overal is still readable as you can see 1 red/blue pixel inside of the white border of the notes.
1.4SV is a guideline so a bad thing to base this subject off of. 1.0SV or similar would easily go past the 50% point compared to 1.4SV you're talking about while still being readable. We should be as lenient as we can here while having a solid rule, which I gave an idea for in my previous post.

Without going and measuring pixels of viewable red/blue, something like this in a low SV section should be allowed (This is from ishida's AVALON)
Anything beyond this would be too much. You can very clearly see the type of note and have enough time to react to it, presenting a reading challenge. I stand by what I said before in that as long as the color is visible (ie you don't just see the white border of the note) it should be allowed.
Topic Starter
Raiden
That level of overlapping may be a challenge for some players but for me (and many others) is just plainly annoying and hinders gameplay experience a lot (not to mention it looks aesthetically horrible). Imagine having clutters of unreadable notes in standard, or an infinite amount of teleporting notes on o!mania (I know I should not compare to other game modes, but it is just to give an example).

Regardless, we will surely reconsider the 50% overlap rule during revision depending on what further feedback we get.
PatZar

Raiden wrote:

to be honest, Slider Velocity should be used when its necessary, for example when pitch/instruments are come down and down, for best choose is increase a bit SV to get more and better experiences when playing, i don't agree with this one, but yes, sometime its a bit hard when playing, but the timeline is better rather than not using any Slider Velocity (in this case it means plain for me)
That's exactly what the guideline implies, "when pitch/instruments are come down and down" means the song's pace is slowing down and you are using an SV according to this pacing change.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something? nope you are right

Thanks for posting!
anyway, what do you mean by

you wrote:

Avoid using smooth SV changes which include variable snapping and keep the variation low enough to avoid overlaps. This is to ensure proper readability of the notes and their snappings.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/509112 those SVs are readable eventhough those are high SVs ammounts
Topic Starter
Raiden

PatZar wrote:

anyway, what do you mean by

you wrote:

Avoid using smooth SV changes which include variable snapping and keep the variation low enough to avoid overlaps. This is to ensure proper readability of the notes and their snappings.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/509112 those SVs are readable eventhough those are high SVs ammounts
It means not smoothing out variably snapped patterns (as in, don't use the same SV change in a 3/4 pattern than in your 1/2 patterns, as that would confuse the player and make them miss most likely). "Keep the variation low enough to avoid overlaps" means not doing huge SV changes in a short period of time as that would make the notes overlap; hence try to use transitioning SV (check the Speedup / Slowdown definition on the Glossary)
mangomizer
What I want to say has mostly already been covered by many users above me, so I don't see really any need to go in depth, but yeah I think 50% is too little, altho it's case by case.

What I didn't see was a specific comment on ninjas, so I'd thought I'd share a though or two on them, because I think they are necessary and need to be explicitly stated in taiko RC. For anyone who doesn't know what a ninja is, it is basically a super fast note that scrolls across the screen in a very short period of time - sometimes you can catch it by reflex, other times it's inhumanly possible, and must be "known" in advance.

Perhaps you'd like to say whether you'd agree with what I think to be suitable guidelines, which I guess aren't set in stone, but highly recommended to follow?

1. Ninjas are acceptable at the beginning or end of song (ideally no more than 4-5 ninjas)
2. Ninjas are also OK anywhere else in the beatmap, however, you should never use more than 2 ninjas (ideally just 1).
2.1. The spacing between the ninja and the note before it should be be no less than than 1/2 snap.
2.2. The spacing between the ninja and the note after it should be no less than 1/1 snap.
2.3. No more than 1 group of ninjas per phrase.
3. Ninjas must be predictable (eg. they follow the strong beats of the music), or maybe counting the beat between barlines.

More to follow if anything not clear.
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