You can't. Usually people end up doubling the BPM

afaik, shortest drum roll is about 7/4-2/1 slider (drum roll counts 1/4 beat as 1 rolls, 1/2 beat as 2 rolls, and 1/1 beat as 4 rolls.)

Hello everybody,
some people may knew it allready, I have want to say some things about the Gudelines. Overall they are okay, but I think there should be some things changed/added or settled in another way as you will see in the following approach, why.
(I will try to make it in a good understandable english and apologize my self if it is not or contains misstakes)

So, let me show you what I have.

The "Taiko Specific Map Guidelines"
1. I noticed that some rules in this guidelines(e.g. HP Drain, Finish Notes) are not fiting anymore to what you guys have decided together and that many Taiko players think, this guidelines are "rules", but in many cases it is said "recommended" or "should be...", so it is I think clear, that we have much more space for mapping as most people thing we have.

About the first point you will find more information in the comming section(3.) I have made.
About the second point I can just say, that we should avoid to show this gudelines as "rules" and try to explain new mappers that they can actually just learn how to map right in this gudeline and that they don't need to follow everything, like for example: OD 7, HP Drain 7.

2. Maybe I'm overtaking it or got the wrong few in the following sentence, but I think also - I'm sure there are more aspects - due to this, people are going a bit too far with the generel ranking criterias because, it seams like that in more and more cases it is not anymore importand, how much a map makes fun. It is more importand right now, how rankable it is.
Unclear contact like in IRC or so: ,,You can't do that, it break the rules!" makes the people worry about there maps. But which 'rules'? Dosen't it makes in this way much more fun as following the not existing 'rules'? It is better when new mappers dosen't make any werid things, but for experience mapper it should be possible enought to make some other things which are also rankable/playable enough without geting the crittic ,,You don't follow the rule".
People should say instead for example: ,,This speadpart is really not fitign to the music; to the part".

My point is easy: Why should be something unrankable (when it is playable and really fun) because it dosen't following this not existing 'rules'?
This guidelines should be seen as guidelines, while modding should be something to do with "playable - not playable // looks objective good // looks not good, etc.".
(These guidelines are based on authentic Taiko no Tatsujin games and should be followed in order to produce a fun and enjoyable taiko specific map.) - Many people forgot that.

I don't say it should be like that, it's just my personal view. I could be in some points wrong, but some should be right.
Anyway, let's go to the next section, the guidelines them self. There you will see some of my opinions and questions.


3. The Guidelines them self

• Difficulty Settings and Song Setup:
  Is it really true, that in TnT the ratio to HP Drain and OD, 7 and 7 is? This seams really high and it didn't felt in the TnT AC like this.
  Didn't saw any discussion about this. Edit: And also, every song have an own HP/OD that fits to it. -> Considering BPM and rightness of offset/ offset/BPM changes
  
• Custom combo colours:
  Maybe it should be written down that same coulour choose like in gameplay is prefered? Since it is harder or makes the quality of modding lower because of no visual view. Edit: It's also easier for Taiko modders in this way to mod the Taiko map.
  
• Slider Velocity
  
  Quote:
  1.5 and 1.6 may be tolerable in some cases with a slower BPM.
  
  I would more say, the visual view is more importand then the technically. Dose someone like 1/4,1/5,1/6 or not is just a personal view.
  So the case with a slower BPM is just one reason.
  
• Finish Notes
  
  lepidopodus wrote:
  Seems most mappers don't like this so let's just say 'don't use Big Notes in 1/4 streams in SV=1.4.' Anyway we need to set exact limitation, as mappers sometimes set SV other than 1.4.
  
  Mh, I think it dosen't matter, how many mappers it like or not. More significant is how usefull it is in some cases. Edit: Short: Still no limitation choosen.
  
  It happens often that in a song a part appear which follows the beat oooooooO(8 notes), but we need to map like oooooo O (6+1 note).
  I say this makes the ->Insert Ozzy's word here: flow<- unstable and sounds sometimes weird too. I want to show you a good example:
  AU - Infinite of Nuclear Fusion[Taiko Oni]
  ^ The climaxx sounds are hearable in the kkkkddddK(01:11:051). If I would change it now to kkkkddddk it would make the ...K K... meaningless and would be weird played as kkkkddddk K one. Also don't forget how it sounds.
  
  Also there is in 01:33:251 a kkD one, but it is playable because you see the big don in the speed part coming, so you can act also better as when it is directly at the stream.
  
  Quote:
  These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour.
  
  For a player it is also possible to play a big hitcircle in a end of a stream and if this player can't do it, he can just play it as a small one.
  
  Zekira wrote:
  Finish Notes in 1/4 streams: NO, unless you're going for something special.
  
  I think this regulation fits really good, since it said that it should be not used, but in special things okay is. Like climaxx timelines, or linear map styles (...K K...ddddK K...).
  About Dddddddd I can say, this should be not used since, the big don is overlapping the first notes.
  dddddddD has not this problem, because the big don has been overlapped just a bit by the small don's.
  
• Kiai Time
  
  Quote:
  Kiai (a concept based on Taiko no Tatsujin's "go go time") sections are only to be used for the chorus(es) of a song. Do not use short "flashes" of kiai like you might use in an osu! standard map. The maximum number of kiai sections to be used in a taiko specific map is 3.
  
  I think this one is also a bit unclear. Songs with a lenght over 4min have sometimes 4 kiai times and it is not wrong to use a kiai time also in another climax time. -> Often usefull in ends of opera songs with there loud imposand insturments.
  I would say to write down ,,unless it is going for something special.", too.
  
• Spinners
  Um, I'm honest. I saw also some cases with oooooooo(spinner) which have fit good, but this is to rare to change it now... hmpf.
  Edit: Oh, has been allready mentioned by Rokodo.
  
• Break Sections
  
  Quote:
  Taiko specific maps should not contain any break sections whatsoever.
  
  
  lepidopodus wrote:
  Break Sections: 'We recommend not to use it, unless the song is long and have small breaks.', looks fair?
• Drumrolls
  Looks fine how it is, but what do you think about drumrolls after streams? Also in special moments allowed?
• Overlapped notes by BPM Changes:
  Mh, that's a real hard question I'm also thinking about... there are really cases, which are okay, but to spam it is is really not good and useless. It makes the map sometimes more interesting and a miss dosen't mean that a map is now bad because, it could be not fc'd in the first play.
• Edit:Audio of hitcircles
  - The normal use should be ,,Normal", not ,,soft" because, the option ,,soft" makes the hitcircles quite.
  - The sound of the hircircles should be at least a bit loder then the music it self?

That's it for now from me. Really long, mh?
So, what do you think about some points and my opinion from beginning?

Edit: Because of playable -> rankable. Don't get it wrong, it should be playable for most people, not like 1/8 notes.

1/4 finishes never
1.4 always
breaks if it fits
song setup, who cares
drum rolls for silly things, scarce use
spinners as would be used in TnT
overlaps, no it's stupid
kiai, choruses or emphasis sections

hmph. how it should be.

ok

brb 10/5/5/10

at 99.832BPM

Song setup should be close to authentic, 5 to 7 are the most popular (I am mapping with 6 now, instead of 5)

1.4 if not too fast nor too slow (TSUPSEUDOGAMUSH is in 1.4 and is terribly played. I barely read the notes :/)

You don't really think that mappers and players are totally seperated, do you. Most of them are also top-rankers(except guys like me), you know.

Also I never enforced this to other mappers and players. This so called 'guidelines' might be the sole regulation that exists for now, but those were never official (and this is why I always end up saying 'I can't enforce anything to them'), but people usually tend to follow this. Why? who knows?
(At least this can be shown as consensus by people outside Taiko community, though.)

Try to gather some more guys if you want to make consensus? Even I can't say something like 'Most of mappers/players blahblahblah' before clarification in here.

You should know that I don't think in this way... but as I said before, isn't it more importand what is technically - good - possible? It is not a small tribute to exclude patterns and can make sometimes a part a bit weird. It would give mapping a little new dimension again because, people are "allowed" to use one~two patterns more.
And people answering with ,,no" without reason makes me a bit suspicious.


Uh... maybe I explained it a bit wrong/not understandable. But I didn't spoke about you guys who made this 'gudelines', also not that you enforced to the players.
More about the whole Taiko community where some players/mappers got it probably wrong. Like you said: (At least this can be shown as consensus by people outside Taiko community, though.)
I don't know how many and who could read that what I have wrote down, but it is directed to all people in this community since I noticed that the last months.


I said just one time "many" and I used it, based on what I saw in the last month(also in multiplayer).


Hum... I'm a bit sad about this answer, to be honest(yeah I can't demand more). Right now I just got the answer to try to get maybe more people, but for what...?
The first point was just a generel fact point I noticed and I'm sure people who want to say something about it(like noticed it too) will post something in this thread.

But the second point dosen't need 'more people' for now, since I propose some things and asking why some guidelines are changed without any discussion(maybe I need to wait for Zekira,aquabluu, Crystal?). People will find this thread and post somethng when they want.
If something really needs more people for a better discussion and clarfication, sure, I will do it. But for now we are in the 'opinion-phase', right?

Or people maybe just don't want to discuss, then I don't know what to say. Yep.

I don't really interested since I'm quite busy these days (better to say that I'm too busy to give some attension on this) so nobody stops you to initiate the discussion. Too be honest I don't even get the exact point, lol.

You can make the map whatever you want, but if you are using something prohibitted without any discussion, you will face some kind of resistance since they don't think it is the right way. So You need to persuade them first. The problem is, this kind of discussion does not always follow logical way. Even if you think something is logical and actually it is, but if it is disliked or thought as wrong by community, that can't be used until those guys change their thoughts since it's a game, not a science or something.

Nah I guess I don't need to intervene this. I have no authority.

Be careful though, some kind of prejudice can block your effort to psuade them.

Just see it as opinion for the gudeliness then, maybe the first sentence is confusing too much. But yes, I can understand that you have no time, so, maybe the best would be to wait then for more opinions.
since it's a game, not a science or something.
Uuh... I think thats probably right what you say.

Well, I guess you need to specify what exactly you think it needs to be change. Curntly you are talking about too many things, and that's quite confusing to me.
Oh, and something written by rokodo in 1st page isn't same with our agreement. Those are his thoughts, though it looks quite similar with current so called 'guidelines'. *goes back to study*

Some features that we considered as 'rules' are broken by Namco itself. Whatever.

thank you

Then let's change finnaly this - in some cases - stupid guidelines and make them to real rules, which makes more sense. It still gets me into nervs.
This gives us also benefits in the future! - I just want to remember: As I know and heard, peppy said long time ago that we could get some more rights if we would finnaly have real and stable rules.
Or let's make a new Taiko mapping Thread if Rokodo is not willing to change it(or if he have no time, seams more to be that case).

Going to open a discussion thread about this soon since we shouldn't be the only one who consider this.

Edit: Made some changes in this post, (edits): viewtopic.php?p=1102490#p1102490
Also improved the grammer for better understanding.