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[Proposal] Spread requirements based on song length

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timemon
Beatmap Nominator
1,305 posts
Joined November 2012
timemon
I'm thinking about the drain time rule things.
How about we allow some leniency on lower difficulties.
For example, The insane diff drain time is 4:10 it is qualified for the 4:00 rule, however due to the gameplay elements of Normal and Hard the maps drain time are 3:40 and 3:50 instead which I would like to extend the rule back to help those lower diffs.

The difference in drain time has to be reasonable and relative to the top diff and the overall length of the song. And the extension will only help Hard difficulties or lower.

The issue with this solution is that it is very vague and needs to be handled subjectively case by case by the Beatmap Nominators to work.

Edit: I might add some people are really concerned about less content on the game which is justified, but I think it might even add more content with this change. Think about all the full ver maps that never got ranked because of the mappers giving up/spread issues. And remember mappers can still opt to ignore this rules and map full spread should they wish to.
Last edited by timemon , edited 1 time in total.
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,844 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
the only exception i could make with the 3 song rule is red like roses 1 and 2 from rwby. but iirc that was an official track released by the artist?
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
very good list kibb



on a different note we'll be collecting feedback until the weekend (so probs around this sunday) and then change the draft accordingly to the consensus of this thread
squirrelpascals
982 posts
Joined March 2015
squirrelpascals

Mir wrote:

timemon wrote:

I've only read the spread proposal. I quite like it, though 3:30 drain time is very hard to reach.

1) full ver maps have lots of break (because they don't have to care about drain time)
2) some full ver songs can be quite short (3:30 to 4:00) so they might even fail to hit the rules designed to help them.

Maybe adjust the drain time a bit? I think 3:00 is good for the lowest point.
I actually agree with this, full version songs are more likely to have breaks in them so having slight leeway for breaks in longer songs would be nice. Instead of 3:30 -> 4:30 -> 5:00, I would prefer 3:00 -> 4:00 -> 5:00. Not only is it more linear (there's a lot of room between 3:30-4:30 to require a hard but half that from 4:30-5:00 to require an insane) but it could also allow more breaks in 3:00+ songs.

This pretty much solves Lasse's concern I think?

Lasse wrote:

Breaks can be very important on <Insane diffs of this length and this would discourage using them, so I think this should somehow be accounted for, but I can't really come up with a nice solution right now.
This is what I also suggested here https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6655193

UndeadCapulet wrote:

@squirrel

please read the first few pages for why we can't do 3/4/5 for time limits. it was almost exclusively seen as too lenient.
That was the very beginning of the thread though. Since we have a lot more people in on this discussion now and we're approaching spreading from different perspectives, I think we should reconsider a linear 3:00 -> 4:00 -> 5:00 draintime spread.
Teky
359 posts
Joined July 2017
Teky
Don't have much to add here, but I'd like to remind everyone of what demographic we're dealing with and how the mapping scene deals with these time factors currently. If we make the cutoff 4:00, A significant portion of full anime OP's and ED's are going to make the cutoff (things the demographics like), which I believe will make them appear more in the mapping scene, unlike how I believe they are currently neglected a bit (not in the literal sense). If we make the cutoff 4:30, not so much. I wouldn't want to talk much because I don't really know the more technical or obscure stuff, but I agree with -Mo-'s proposal here. Even in that case, remember that we don't exactly have to settle for 3:00/4:00/5:00 or 3:30/4:30/5:00. We can do stuff like 2:30/3:30/5:00 (While I know may seem unreasonable, but this is just a reminder).
Last edited by Teky , edited 1 time in total.
TheKingHenry
1,666 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry

Okoratu wrote:

very good list kibb
Tfw tried looking the previous pages like where the hell's this, only to realize in the end it's prob just sarcastic remark for

Kibbleru wrote:

the only exception i could make with the 3 song rule is red like roses 1 and 2 from rwby. but iirc that was an official track released by the artist?
FeelsBadMan

EDIT: wdym with that tho kibb? You wanting red like roses to be exception to song compilations needing 3 but it having 2 (not like it should be song compilation anyways, doesn't it work as one track?) or does it have 3 parts and you want it to not be song compilation cuz it works as one or whaaaaat (in which case it shouldn't be the only exception obviously) (￣ー￣；
Halfslashed
Global Moderator
425 posts
Joined July 2014
Halfslashed

-Mo- wrote:

Suggestions:

- Move the cut-off point for Normal difficulties up to 4:00. I think this is a more reasonable place to put it given the demand for full length songs.

- Add a new guideline that relaxes what a reasonable spread is for maps above 3:00. This is my compromise for raising the normal diff cut-off. One of the problems mappers face is having a low level normal diff and a high level hard diff, and requiring either remaps of the current diffs or the addition of an advanced diff to fill the gap. This problem is amplified for longer maps because more effort etc etc. This new guideline would allow spreads with wider gaps between each difficulty, lowering the workload on the mapper by not having to worry about spread too much and having less drain time to map whilst keeping maps accessible for lower level players.
The problem with the graphs shown as well as the data via twitter poll is that it does not take into account that people wanting full length songs are invested in the game. The purpose of the proposal is to incentivize mapping more songs of that length for that audience, as opposed to the newer audience that tires out. Given that, I still think 3:30 for a minimum difficulty of hard is a good place to put the cutoff.

The other point would be much harder to define in a way that mappers would be able to use it, since usually those remaps and creating additional difficulties is not understanding how to keep a linear spread while avoiding massive jumps between difficulties. A guideline that "relaxes" this would just allow poor spread design through to ranked.
Nao Tomori
Nomination Assessment Team
3,089 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
if you people want linear just go with 3:30 - 4:15 - 5. that both avoids the "issue" of non linearity while also keeping fairly normal standards for drain time per set; for a 3 minute nhix set, that's 12 minutes and about the max amount ever needed for a set, which is perfectly fine imo... at 3:30 hix that becomes 10:30 which isn't a huge reduction and then 4:15 ix is 8:30 which is also not a big difference.
h3oCharles
1,488 posts
Joined July 2016
h3oCharles
plz move to completed
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
pimp

Nevo wrote:

pimpG wrote:

not really looking forward to see the beginner difficulties decreasing but the boss has spoken and he doesn't really mind that...

"only allow compilations to be mapped as the same difficulty level each song..."
^ I think this should be considered
Problem with this is not all songs will be the same difficulty example being https://osu.ppy.sh/s/744238 which has a 206bpm song and a 86bpm which are completely related as its part of the same album project so its a completely logical compilation
sure but what if the songs have similar bpm and intensity, shouldn't the RC at least discourage mappers from mapping them inconsistently?
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,176 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo

pimpG wrote:

sure but what if the songs have similar bpm and intensity, shouldn't the RC at least discourage mappers from mapping them inconsistently?
I personally haven't seen a compilation which maps 2 slimiler bpm/intensity songs in completely different levels of difficulty. So i dont really see what making people stay consistent would do since its like their interpretation of the songs and stuff.
tatatat
905 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
I think the wording of the proposal could be fixed to somehow uhh.. deal with the "at least two difficulties" part of the current ranking criteria. Not that I support this proposal. I'm just saying. Also I'm not really a fan of the "Song compilations must incorporate 3 or more songs. " thing. If I want to make a compilation of two 4:30 length songs from the same artist and album into a 9 minute map, I can't? No more Artist - Song1 / Song2 ? that seems silly.
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
pimp
the proposal is to make the ranking process easier to get long songs ranked without the need of extending them, allowing people to pick two random songs from an artist/album would be a contradiction in the proposal. making an exception for songs like the ones kibbleru mentioned should be fine.

Nevo wrote:

I personally haven't seen a compilation which maps 2 slimiler bpm/intensity songs in completely different levels of difficulty. So i dont really see what making people stay consistent would do since its like their interpretation of the songs and stuff.
if the songs have similar bpm and intensity then I don't see how the interpretation could be different. i'm talking about obvious SR differences... what if the mapper decides to have the compilation mapped as (Extra ~ Easy ~ Hard) when all songs in the compilation supports the same level. That's subjective so what are the chances that you will be able to convince him that this is a bad idea if not even the RC mentions anything about it. sure I don't remember seeing anyone doing this so far but it doesn't means it won't happen in the future.

there is some maps that have increasing difficulty level like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/69076 but this concept wouldn't make sense in a compilation of songs with similar intensity and bpm imo

Proposal wrote:

Guidelines
  1. Each song in a song compilation should be similar in audio quality, volume, and length.
could be something like:

Proposal wrote:

Guidelines
  1. Each song in a song compilation should be similar in audio quality, volume, length and difficulty level.
Nao Tomori
Nomination Assessment Team
3,089 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
that should not need to be a rule. it's like saying, your extra diff should not be mapped like a normal then have random fullscreen jumps somewhere randomly. that is simply something that would be considered low quality by BNG and should not be nominated. even if it isn't a hard set guideline people still do not support it, so there isn't a reason to suspect they would do it in a marathon form...
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
pimp
one of the main reasons why we are discussing this changes is because some BN nominated bad stuff
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,176 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
Well it's because it's subjective since not everyone thinks the same way about mapping songs you shouldn't create a rule to force people to do things the way you think it right if they think it's wrong. At least that's how I feel about it.
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
pimp
I believe that the majority would agree with it but I only suggested a few more words for the guideline, not a rule.
tatatat
905 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
So instead of combining two 4:30 songs from the same artist and album into one 9 minute diff, I'd have to combine three 4:30 songs into 13:30 length diff? that just seems absurdly dumb. Why should there be any restrictions of what songs can be mapped. I do agree that just patching together two random songs from two random artists isn't okay, but why not from the same artist and same album? Why map two diffs of a 4:30 length song when you can map one diff of 9 minutes of two song? There is much more variety. If I can't combine two 4:30 length songs from the same album, I'd just be... inclined to extend the compilation with a r3 music box to fit the 3 song requirement. and thats even dumber? right?

Two songs from the same artist should be perfectly acceptable, such as https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1639326 . I see nothing wrong with the way two songs were combined.

Also I'm still not entirely sure whether or not the rule of requiring a "spread of at least two difficulties." is required for maps shorter than 5:00 in drain time. Can you please clarify?
Vacuous
157 posts
Joined July 2016
Vacuous

tatatat wrote:

So instead of combining two 4:30 songs from the same artist and album into one 9 minute diff, I'd have to combine three 4:30 songs into 13:30 length diff? that just seems absurdly dumb. Why should there be any restrictions of what songs can be mapped. I do agree that just patching together two random songs from two random artists isn't okay, but why not from the same artist and same album? Why map two diffs of a 4:30 length song when you can map one diff of 9 minutes of two song? There is much more variety. If I can't combine two 4:30 length songs from the same album, I'd just be... inclined to extend the compilation with a r3 music box to fit the 3 song requirement. and thats even dumber? right?

Two songs from the same artist should be perfectly acceptable, such as https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1639326 . I see nothing wrong with the way two songs were combined.

Also I'm still not entirely sure whether or not the rule of requiring a "spread of at least two difficulties." is required for maps shorter than 5:00 in drain time. Can you please clarify?
From what I understand, they're working on rewording it so that 2 song mashes are ok with reasonable justification rather than just extending drain time.
Also, any map under 5:00 still wouldn't be considered a marathon so yes, they would need at least two difficulties.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
Does the spread also have to remain linear?

Example:
if the drain time is 3:30-4:30 your set's lowest diff must be hard or lower (excuse me if that is outdated, just took it from the first post)

Let's say I still want to make an Easy for this diff- is a normal still required then?
kwk
572 posts
Joined May 2010
kwk

Irreversible wrote:

Does the spread also have to remain linear?

Example:
if the drain time is 3:30-4:30 your set's lowest diff must be hard or lower (excuse me if that is outdated, just took it from the first post)

Let's say I still want to make an Easy for this diff- is a normal still required then?
I'd assume so, the reasonable spread rule is still in place.
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
nah the reasonable spread would only have to start at the hard
so you could do EHIX or w/ev if you wanted
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
pimp
one last thing that i'm concerned

there should be some limitation to what songs can be combined into a rankable compilation
the way the Proposal right now basically you can put songs from 6ix9ine, BABY METAL, and Beethoven in the same compilation
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,176 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo

pimpG wrote:

one last thing that i'm concerned

there should be some limitation to what songs can be combined into a rankable compilation
the way the Proposal right now basically you can put songs from 6ix9ine, BABY METAL, and Beethoven in the same compilation
That's what's attempting to be discussed with t/756468 iirc
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Hi,

we applied all the angry feedback we received over song compilations and extensions
please dont actually attempt lynching anyone over this:

https://gist.github.com/Okorin/190bc363f4790744556d3f919eb8e1cf
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
we decided to stick to 3:30/4:30/5:00 for a couple reasons:
  1. 3:00 cutoff abnormally affects certain music genres more than others
  2. there's a fair amount of data that suggests hard players like 3 minute songs
  3. we can always lower the numbers further after the proposal goes through should it be deemed acceptable to do so, but it'd be insanely hard to increase the numbers in any way
we can do 3:30/4:15/5:00 i guess, but that looks really silly to me
timemon
Beatmap Nominator
1,305 posts
Joined November 2012
timemon
I have a question, do every non marathon maps always have to have 2 diffs or more? Like if 4:45 map is a hard diff, does it need another difficulty? The proposal isn't clear on this one

Also what about the break on lower difficulties? The top diff might hit 3:30 drain but lower diffs might not.

Edit: Didn't see the full github thing, the drain time thing is addressed oops.
Last edited by timemon , edited 1 time in total.
Mordred
532 posts
Joined October 2015
Mordred

timemon wrote:

I have a question, do every non marathon maps always have to have 2 diffs or more? Like if 4:45 map is a hard diff, does it need another difficulty? The proposal isn't clear on this one

Also what about the break on lower difficulties? The top diff might hit 3:30 drain but lower diffs might not.
first thing gets removed, 2nd would have this now https://i.imgur.com/alU9tH5.png
sdafsf
309 posts
Joined October 2013
sdafsf

timemon wrote:

I have a question, do every non marathon maps always have to have 2 diffs or more? Like if 4:45 map is a hard diff, does it need another difficulty? The proposal isn't clear on this one

Also what about the break on lower difficulties? The top diff might hit 3:30 drain but lower diffs might not.

Single-mode mapsets must include a reasonable spread of at least two difficulties.
Last edited by sdafsf , edited 1 time in total.
Lasse
Beatmap Nominator
3,596 posts
Joined June 2011
Lasse
looks great, I don't have anything to complain about anymore
moving extensions and compilations into guidelines is nice


this looks like a fine solution for the break issues
Difficulties lower than Insane can use their play time as a metric instead of drain time, but their play time must be equal to at least 80% of their drain time.



don't really care if it's 4:15 or 4:30, both seem alright to me
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
dude sdafsf that's the first removed thing

it's in the removed section

@timemon: you are right it does not need another difficulty
timemon
Beatmap Nominator
1,305 posts
Joined November 2012
timemon
So this essentially lower the bar for marathon by 30 seconds, if you map insane.

Maybe I'm lacking sleep cause its 2am but if you guys get rid of the forced "2 diff" rule in favor of this proposal. Can't I just make a TV size map with only normal diff and rank it, or I am missing something again.
Mao
Elite Mapper II
2,963 posts
Joined December 2012
Mao

timemon wrote:

So this essentially lower the bar for marathon by 30 seconds, if you map insane.

Maybe I'm lacking sleep cause its 2am but if you guys get rid of the forced "2 diff" rule in favor of this proposal. Can't I just make a TV size map with only normal diff and rank it, or I am missing something again.


I mean you could right now just rank a TV size with E/N, doesn't make that much of a difference.
I'm not sure if I like that you don't have to make two difficulties anymore though, the marathon bar for Hards would be lowered to 3:30 and that's pretty low imo.
Last edited by Mao , edited 1 time in total.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
Isn't it possible to turn "Because osu!mania does not have a difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria yet, an osu!mania mapset's Normal difficulty is defined as a difficulty below 2.00 stars." into a note or, alternatively, moving it to the mania specific RC? It makes the rule harder to read, as it adds something between the main rule and an exception.
timemon
Beatmap Nominator
1,305 posts
Joined November 2012
timemon

Mao wrote:

timemon wrote:

So this essentially lower the bar for marathon by 30 seconds, if you map insane.

Maybe I'm lacking sleep cause its 2am but if you guys get rid of the forced "2 diff" rule in favor of this proposal. Can't I just make a TV size map with only normal diff and rank it, or I am missing something again.


I mean you could right now just rank a TV size with E/N, doesn't make that much of a difference.
I'm not sure if I like that you don't have to make two difficulties anymore though, the marathon bar for Hards would be lowered to 3:30 and that's pretty low imo.


The marathon bar will be lowered to 30 seconds if you want to map Easy/Normal diff which is absurd.
J1NX1337
248 posts
Joined February 2014
J1NX1337
Single-mode mapsets must form a reasonable spread. This spread must comply with its respective mode's difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria.


So you removed the rule that requires to have at least 2 diffs per set to have a rankable spread. Does this mean you can now basically have a 4:30-long "marathon" with a single Insane diff? These things need to be clarified better. Consequently these RC neither explain what a reasonable spread is, so it's quite vague.

The audio file of a song should not be artificially extended in order to meet a time limitation in the mapset section of this criteria. This can include (but is not limited to) looping sections of the audio file, lowering the bpm of the song or section of the song, or adding small amounts of music to the song without incorporating it throughout the entire song. This does not apply to song compilations or audio files less than the minimum rankable mapset length.


What's the point of this again? If I read this correctly, it's ok to extend a song to reach the minimum rankable song length. In my opinion, this only invites poor quality mapsets to be made. People will extend/loop/modify short songs to make popular pp farm maps with minimum effort required.
Vivyanne
1,215 posts
Joined December 2013
Vivyanne


basically advocating the 3:30 - 4:15 - 5:00 drain time steps
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
As others have said, I don't think the minimum 2 diff rule should be gone. As the proposal stands now, I could map a 1 min Normal and get it ranked. You could say that the proposal mentions that maps require a proper spread (and you can't have spread with only 1 element), but an explicit mention of this minimum number of diffs required would be good.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
just fyi i said in the beginning that im not actually the most supportive of it i'm just dragging the idea along and making sure it doesnt just go and die

spread kind of implies that you have 2 elements that spread out
yeah

I think the bar for entry into the ranked section should be at some point higher than making one diff in a solo set but at the moment, as a host, it's at making one diff at minimum - just that the allowed tv size normal diff being rankable would be super weird for a player - like you could even spam those sets out if you wanted to lol
Doormat
2,049 posts
Joined September 2013
Doormat

ZiRoX wrote:

As others have said, I don't think the minimum 2 diff rule should be gone. As the proposal stands now, I could map a 1 min Normal and get it ranked. You could say that the proposal mentions that maps require a proper spread (and you can't have spread with only 1 element), but an explicit mention of this minimum number of diffs required would be good.

I have the same complaints/worries. Having a base minimum difficulty requirement is good conceptually, but comes with too many implications in my opinion. The idea that I could make a “marathon” for a TV Size if I only mapped a Normal difficulty completely undermines the original intent of this proposal to begin with (balancing spread requirements for longer songs).

Personally I feel that there needs to be a requirement for a minimum number of difficulties in addition to a minimum difficulty level; otherwise the spread requirement will feel redundant.
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