Maxus wrote:

thank you niks for the understanding
Seem fine now, will leave the rest to lulu.

Garalulu wrote:

Maxus off probation when

Surono wrote:

duhh..
does someone hv reportd this?

Asherz007 wrote:

Hi there,

Congrats on the qualification, but I believe that there is an issue present that needs to be dealt with before this map can progress any further.

After having a discussion with Protastic, we've decided that the hitsounds, or lack thereof, in this map is insufficient for rank. While there are keysounds that are not present in the song itself providing feedback to the player, this is minimal and only exists in certain parts of the chart (it is absent from 00:12:369 to 00:21:612 and 01:18:581 to the end for example), which essentially leaves some parts completely unhitsounded.

This would not be as big an issue if the hitnormal were louder, but as it stands, it is incredibly difficult to hear feedback from the hitnormal in louder sections of the song, even with the music at 20% and sound effects at 100%. Similarly, in the quieter sections, the music needs to be turned down to around 30% for the hitnormal to become remotely audible. This is a problem since every note needs to have audible feedback for the player.

A possible solution for this issue would be to additionally hitsound the map using more conventional hitsounds (such as a kick or snare), as well as increasing the volume of the hitnormal. The keysounds as they are are fine and can be kept.

Protastic101 wrote:

Alright, I suppose since it's a grey area, it's fine to leave the hitsounds as is. Still, the problem with the hitsounds being inaudible is still there with the hitnormal because increasing the volume of it in game doesn't really do anything when the sample itself is almost inaudible. Please raise the volume through audacity or some other software so that it can be heard. Currently, there is almost no feedback from the hitnormal still, but it has improved.

Protastic101 wrote:

Raised the volume of the sample and also adjusted green line volume settings in all diffs, should be better now. Here's the heart back

error_exe777 wrote:

i have to agree with myka.

this hitsounding is backwards, very much so. using justification like "and many people like it" isn't good enough to write off the lack of feedback. the ranking criteria is there for a reason, not to be written off by personal opinions of players. to be more specific, keysounding just for vocals gives no valid feedback to the player, and having literally the rest as some loud drum sound is completely disregarding any sort of acknowledge that the song exists and you aren't ignoring it. focusing on vocals is literally the opposite of what you want to be emphasising here. the vocals do not affect gameplay and the hitsounds should enforce that. also, skipping drum hitsounds because it feels "unnecessary"? seriously, the entire point of hitsounds is to provide feedback and you not adding these hitsounds is literally doing the opposite. there is no acknowledgement that they exist within the song and similarly to above, and what myka said, it doesnt bloody harm to add them.

you cannot back up a unconventional choice with personal opinions, specifically when it disregards both the music and the ranking criteria (to a degree).

just.. add some K-S hitsounds. it takes less to no effort and it completely eliminates any problems regarding feedback.


actually really surprised the QAT didnt question this further.

Wonki wrote:

태클걸꺼면 디퀄댈때 한번에해라 븅신드라

Maxus wrote:

Saying that feedback in this map is non-existent is really really awkward.. this map DOES have feedback in ALL notes, and the feedback issues are why the hitnormal are to be made really audible in the first place, it backs up the condition that every note needs to be audible enough in the RC, which this map actually already did. So technically from RC perspective, this map doesn't break any rule.

Having another loud and hard HS like snare or drum thing destroys how the keysound plays in the first place and It completely disrupt how the way that the keysound supposed to be the main thing here. Emphasizing vocal in this kind of song does making sense as this is an anime song where the vocal supposed to be the main star in the whole song (which obviously all anime song supposed to be? lmao..), and it's just like how the keysound works in this map.

Wanting to have more loud hitsound in the map with keysound is too subjective to be enforced to the mapper (just like if some people prefer to play map with specific pattern over other map, which is a matter of liking), and it kinda disregard how the mapper try to work around their planning for this map.

Kamikaze wrote:

If you clearly map to the drums in this map, why are you so opposed to making any kind of drum hitsounding and instead use a tiny hat sound along with piano for vocals?????????????

Wonki wrote:

태클걸꺼면 디퀄댈때 한번에해라 븅신드라

Kamikaze wrote:

although the hitsounds are a thing already discussed I'll just chip in to say that soft sampleset in general works really badly on any type of song that's fast, intense, or Not Piano Actually as the tiny hat sounds are more annoying than actually helping, normal sampleset with a standard hitnormal would already be way better, you could also raise the volume of the keysounds a bit to make them more important and more distinct since they're not really now

but that's not why I came here

SVs in this map are pointless and badly executed, you are just putting SVs so you have something interesting in your map and it has very bad effects on it.

Starting with the fact that you have only three spots in the map where you put any SVs and the first one is at 41 seconds into the map, it's incredibly inconsistent. Then to make it all consistent do the map really need SVs all over the place then? I don't really get this kind thinking. Usually SVs for most map are treated as additional properties instead of becoming the main thing of the map, and having couple places SVs in this map does make sense to me instead of compelling all the way to make SVs for other spots, which doesn't only felt forced when playing, but deviating from map's intention from the start.

The slowdown at 00:41:612 - albeit not that noticeable makes no sense as this section is not that much less intense than the previous one, more to that, you revert to 1,0x SV at 00:48:884 - where an EVEN LESS INTENSE PART HAPPENS, which is a nail in the coffin, the slowdown SV makes no sense and serves no purpose The instrument fading here, it has much less hard instrument compared with upbeat part before, and the vocal signify by singing in a much lower key to support the less intense instrument, i think it gives more than enough reason to do so.
For the part at 00:48:884 - , it's actually more intense for me because It gains additional instrument that's not exist in previous section (the guitar here much much more loud suddenly) , and this part serves as the bridge before going through the Reff or we usually call by kiai section, I do think it's reasonable enough tbh.

00:53:581 - This SV comes out super randomly, there is no other place in the entire map where you have an SV at this sound, then you have the execution which I can see that you might've tried to normalize the SV jump to 1x but you have the placement which is this:

This makes it so you don't have a normalized SV jump that's okay to play but there's a sudden slowdown that you cannot sightread because even if you expect SVs from the song (I didn't) you don't get any SVs in the first half and also you don't expect a sudden slowdown there so you automatically let go of LNs and miss. There are couple things that justify this part.
1. If there's already slowdown happening before, doesn't it strike player that this map will have SV in later part and then prepare for that?
2. This is the very first where the kiai or the reff of the song appear here, when the main entertainment appear, it's natural for me to have more exciting thing appear.
3. For number 1, Even if you want to say this need more than one time to be nailed, isn't most of SV map generally like that? I don't think the nature of SV in general can be immediately nailed by people who never play the map at all tbh. moreover i remember couple years ago when i was non-BN, i remember you stating https://puu.sh/ztOmu/4acdca2e63.png to public, so this somehow gives impression that you double-standard things so subjectively.
4. The leaderboard have many of the tester nailing the map to the point top rank player get SS or 998k+ effortlessly, usually we stating that something is silly/dumb when players constantly can't nail specific part properly, but leaderboard results contradicts that.

00:59:490 - This is also the only point in the song where you use this type of SVs and for some reason you don't use them on the first chord and use it on all other chords????? consistency?????????????????? if you say that the first chord is not suitable for putting this SV there because of whatever reason you will be correct but it will also apply to all of the SVs here
you are just putting SVs for vocal syllabes with no further context, this is not okay.At the same time, this part is the only part where the vocal syllables comes out consistently at 1/1 beat, no other part in the music does this, So having this particular SV doesn't make it not reasonable considering the fact we have here.

01:01:460 - why are you suddenly using quads for those drums? you only use quads otherwise when there are also LNs going alongside (which I also don't really agree with since there's no sound as strong as to support a quad imo) Niks did answer me before. http://puu.sh/ztOCP/960d54d6b2.png

and then I got struck by a really good question regarding the hitsound usage there was an argument for:

If you clearly map to the drums in this map, why are you so opposed to making any kind of drum hitsounding and instead use a tiny hat sound along with piano for vocals?????????????
Because mapper generally will map more than one instrument?
in the end of the day, there will be other kind of instrument to be mapped in the process, but it doesn't really mean it was in the mapper intention to highlight that instrument in general.

error_exe777 wrote:

I think a couple people are missing the point

Just because something is fun or just because you are able hit the notes accurately doesn’t justify anything. Essentially a baseless arguement

error_exe777 wrote:

we need to keep a level of quality in the ranked section and yknow, having non-sensical SVs “playing fine” doesn’t really give any argument for keeping them as they are

Maxus wrote:

Kay, Felt like i really need to reply cause this felt so wrong. will reply again after sleep.

error_exe777 wrote:

I think a couple people are missing the point

Just because something is fun or just because you are able hit the notes accurately doesn’t justify anything. Essentially a baseless arguement

I'm really confused right now, How does something that is fun and play well doesn't justify things? it is a really major component in determine whether the map actually pose the problem from the start or not. in fact if the map can satisfy the target audience the map's try to direct , I don't see the reason to over-analyze things too much if each element has its purpose and other stranger personally said its nice, as it is by itself hits a very grey area of perception.

uhm well, yes i can agree the playability of a map is a very important factor in the "quality" of a map but its not the only factor. just because a map plays well does not mean it adheres to the level needed to reach the ranking criteria. you could create a completely overmapped beatmap and even if its "fun" it doesnt means its rankable per se. i just think blaming everything on just whether it plays well is a really narrow-minded way of looking at the map because quality is not just decided by whether it plays well. if a map has problems, it cannot be disregarded just because it isnt objectively bad to play. if you were to make a vibro map or something that people found fun to play, that doesnt immediately mean its rankable. you have to take into consideration the other factors rather than just immediately assuming something is okay because it plays well. if a section of a map is inconsistent, or illogical, or disregarding the music or false emphasis whatever you want to label, it cannot be brushed to the side just because the target audience doesnt have a problem with it. this map has a problem, and just because it plays well doesnt mean we can just brush it to the side, you know?

error_exe777 wrote:

we need to keep a level of quality in the ranked section and yknow, having non-sensical SVs “playing fine” doesn’t really give any argument for keeping them as they are

quality is very very subjective and differ for each person, and you know it. it is not something you can "keep the level" on cause each interpretation can lead to really biased thing. i remembered back then that "overchorded" and "overmap" were an issues that been brought multiple time as "quality" issues, and now it actually got into the rank section and we see it doesn't get posed as an issue from either player / mapper anymore. It is just one of the strong proof on how we can't really bring quality as the reason very easily.



quality isnt subjective?? okay, the level of quality differs for each persons map but there is a level of quality you need to reach for a map to be rankable. even pishifat mentioned this in one of his earlier videos iirc. the problem at hand is that there are problems with the map that dent the "quality" of it and letting maps with these problems slip through is where the problem lies. we need to keep this level of quality because the ranked section needs to have that quality. its not subjective at all, anyone can look at a map and determine its quality (if you know what you're doing) and its not like the objective quality of a map differs from person to person. the only thing that differs is the ability to determine the quality of a map. quality is not a person to person basis, its something that is set in stone. and thats why we need to fix these problems because its quite obviously a hinder to the maps quality (in my eyes) and myself and kami have justified why it is. its not like the actual quality of the map is different between me and you for instance, its just down to how we view the map and what we determine as acceptable and not acceptable.

error_exe777 wrote:

uhm well, yes i can agree the playability of a map is a very important factor in the "quality" of a map but its not the only factor. just because a map plays well does not mean it adheres to the level needed to reach the ranking criteria. you could create a completely overmapped beatmap and even if its "fun" it doesnt means its rankable per se. i just think blaming everything on just whether it plays well is a really narrow-minded way of looking at the map because quality is not just decided by whether it plays well. if a map has problems, it cannot be disregarded just because it isnt objectively bad to play. if you were to make a vibro map or something that people found fun to play, that doesnt immediately mean its rankable. you have to take into consideration the other factors rather than just immediately assuming something is okay because it plays well. if a section of a map is inconsistent, or illogical, or disregarding the music or false emphasis whatever you want to label, it cannot be brushed to the side just because the target audience doesnt have a problem with it. this map has a problem, and just because it plays well doesnt mean we can just brush it to the side, you know?

error_exe777 wrote:

quality isnt subjective?? okay, the level of quality differs for each persons map but there is a level of quality you need to reach for a map to be rankable. even pishifat mentioned this in one of his earlier videos iirc. the problem at hand is that there are problems with the map that dent the "quality" of it and letting maps with these problems slip through is where the problem lies. we need to keep this level of quality because the ranked section needs to have that quality. its not subjective at all, anyone can look at a map and determine its quality (if you know what you're doing) and its not like the objective quality of a map differs from person to person. the only thing that differs is the ability to determine the quality of a map. quality is not a person to person basis, its something that is set in stone. and thats why we need to fix these problems because its quite obviously a hinder to the maps quality (in my eyes) and myself and kami have justified why it is. its not like the actual quality of the map is different between me and you for instance, its just down to how we view the map and what we determine as acceptable and not acceptable.

Maxus wrote:

Well, if the map get dq then so be it, but i really feel i need to make some couple important remarks here.

although the hitsounds are a thing already discussed I'll just chip in to say that soft sampleset in general works really badly on any type of song that's fast, intense, or Not Piano Actually as the tiny hat sounds are more annoying than actually helping, normal sampleset with a standard hitnormal would already be way better, you could also raise the volume of the keysounds a bit to make them more important and more distinct since they're not really now

but that's not why I came here

SVs in this map are pointless and badly executed, you are just putting SVs so you have something interesting in your map and it has very bad effects on it.

Starting with the fact that you have only three spots in the map where you put any SVs and the first one is at 41 seconds into the map, it's incredibly inconsistent. Then to make it all consistent do the map really need SVs all over the place then? I don't really get this kind thinking. Usually SVs for most map are treated as additional properties instead of becoming the main thing of the map, and having couple places SVs in this map does make sense to me instead of compelling all the way to make SVs for other spots, which doesn't only felt forced when playing, but deviating from map's intention from the start.

The thing is, I was not vouching for adding more SVs. I'm of the opinion that this map doesn't need ANY SVs and it would be better off not having those sparse random changes for the sake of map looking cooler. It's what I refer as making SVs for the sake of having SVs in the map. The SV feels forced, each one of those three SVs feels forced just to have it. Maybe apart from the third one but more to that later.


The slowdown at 00:41:612 - albeit not that noticeable makes no sense as this section is not that much less intense than the previous one, more to that, you revert to 1,0x SV at 00:48:884 - where an EVEN LESS INTENSE PART HAPPENS, which is a nail in the coffin, the slowdown SV makes no sense and serves no purpose The instrument fading here, it has much less hard instrument compared with upbeat part before, and the vocal signify by singing in a much lower key to support the less intense instrument, i think it gives more than enough reason to do so.
For the part at 00:48:884 - , it's actually more intense for me because It gains additional instrument that's not exist in previous section (the guitar here much much more loud suddenly) , and this part serves as the bridge before going through the Reff or we usually call by kiai section, I do think it's reasonable enough tbh.

We have differing opinions then because the instrument is indeed fading but then more of the intensity is fading as it's slowing down to then make a bigger return for the chorus. That being said the slowjam only really serves as sort of an annoyance because the layering is not really taken into account, the scroll speed slows down but you have trickier LNs to handle which is impractical while also it's not big enough to force a diffrent reading technique so it's pretty awkward.


00:53:581 - This SV comes out super randomly, there is no other place in the entire map where you have an SV at this sound, then you have the execution which I can see that you might've tried to normalize the SV jump to 1x but you have the placement which is this:

This makes it so you don't have a normalized SV jump that's okay to play but there's a sudden slowdown that you cannot sightread because even if you expect SVs from the song (I didn't) you don't get any SVs in the first half and also you don't expect a sudden slowdown there so you automatically let go of LNs and miss. There are couple things that justify this part.
1. If there's already slowdown happening before, doesn't it strike player that this map will have SV in later part and then prepare for that?
2. This is the very first where the kiai or the reff of the song appear here, when the main entertainment appear, it's natural for me to have more exciting thing appear.
3. For number 1, Even if you want to say this need more than one time to be nailed, isn't most of SV map generally like that? I don't think the nature of SV in general can be immediately nailed by people who never play the map at all tbh. moreover i remember couple years ago when i was non-BN, i remember you stating https://puu.sh/ztOmu/4acdca2e63.png to public, so this somehow gives impression that you double-standard things so subjectively.
4. The leaderboard have many of the tester nailing the map to the point top rank player get SS or 998k+ effortlessly, usually we stating that something is silly/dumb when players constantly can't nail specific part properly, but leaderboard results contradicts that.

It's funny that you mention Batting Show because this is a perfect example of a map that's built SPECIFICALLY FOR SVS. This map is not. This map only has a jump that's too powerful for what the song provides just to have some effect. The concept of this map and it's patterning are not built specifically for SVs. Batting Show is.
The slowdown happening before argument is also not logical because it might make a player think "huh there are SVs here?" but also if you expect players to guess that they will have an uneven 3,1x->0,3x jump after a 0,92x slowjam then you are wrong.
I also don't get the point about it being an excitement factor, the excitement factors are kiai, harder patterning, but not a single SV that starts off this "hype" section. Also funny how you mention that when you later mention that you dislike heavy SV maps.
As for 4. of course that it's a hyperboly, it's a 3,8* acc map mostly 1/1 rhythms, remembering two seconds is nothing for top rank players, same for me, it took me 4 tries to SS the map, even though it didn't beat my 1x200 score due to not focusing that much on ratio. If you expect that on a map like that leaderboards will show clearly stuff like that then it's not. I've asked a couple of fairly good people to play the map and give me their opinions and while they have differing opinions about the patterning and third SV, I've only heard "wtf" "why is this so strong lmao it doesn't fit here" and so on comments about this particular SV. Also if it wasn't for this SV the whole mod of mine would just consist of saying that the third SV is inconsistent while asking for a fix

00:59:490 - This is also the only point in the song where you use this type of SVs and for some reason you don't use them on the first chord and use it on all other chords????? consistency?????????????????? if you say that the first chord is not suitable for putting this SV there because of whatever reason you will be correct but it will also apply to all of the SVs here
you are just putting SVs for vocal syllabes with no further context, this is not okay.At the same time, this part is the only part where the vocal syllables comes out consistently at 1/1 beat, no other part in the music does this, So having this particular SV doesn't make it not reasonable considering the fact we have here.

Okay, I can agree with that point, but there is next to no lead in to that as in there is no other SV like that in the entire map even if it was way less intense so you can't possibly expect that without hearing about what the map has beforehand. And also that doesn't solve the issue of he's accenting four vocal syllabes and forgets about the first one.

01:01:460 - why are you suddenly using quads for those drums? you only use quads otherwise when there are also LNs going alongside (which I also don't really agree with since there's no sound as strong as to support a quad imo) Niks did answer me before. http://puu.sh/ztOCP/960d54d6b2.png

Besides the fact that the reasoning (probably due to the language barrier) is basically "I think it's not overchorded, I think it's less overchorded" I guess it's subjective, not gonna push hard on that one

and then I got struck by a really good question regarding the hitsound usage there was an argument for:

If you clearly map to the drums in this map, why are you so opposed to making any kind of drum hitsounding and instead use a tiny hat sound along with piano for vocals?????????????
Because mapper generally will map more than one instrument?
in the end of the day, there will be other kind of instrument to be mapped in the process, but it doesn't really mean it was in the mapper intention to highlight that instrument in general.

Yeah but also if he does make notes for the drum and drum notes sometimes paired with vocals give even quads is it really that much to ask for to just add some (even light)
drum sample? Especially with the first point that I've mentioned - the soft hitnormal sounds REALLY jarring on this map, it's hard to concentrate on accuracy for me as someone who uses hitsounds for timing because the hat sample is clashing really hard with the song. I get that Niks does the piano keysounds for the vocals, it's a novel idea, but the fact that it's novel doesn't mean that it should always be done by all means necessary because hey I want my map to have that swag most people won't even notice.

Personally for me as BN, I like to thinking on what mappers try to planning first for certain part (it even stated at code of conduct, and i agree with it). So for most part, i put my personal opinion aside towards other mapping approaches if i do think it makes sense in accordance to many other factors i considered within the range of the song.
I myself have personal opinion that i don't really like heavy SV map that have really unpredictable nature that i need to go editor for like tenth times or more to nail properly, but i saw many others like it and even say its amazing, so i don't really pursue that if none has problem to begin with. I appreciate the concern, but i do think this can be done more respectfully.

If you're going for code of conduct as an argument so will I:
"When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively / objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level. All types of suggestion are fine as long as they are put forward accordingly."

"Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in its current design - not force your own style upon it. If you truly believe the map has too many significant issues to address individually, try to give a general statement of why this is the case and what direction you think the map should go in to get back on track."

I believe that the concept behind the SV usage is fundamentally flawed from the start as the song does not provide the instrumental feedback for SVs that are presented in the map and said SVs are flawed in their construction:
- first SV does not make much sense if you just cut the slowjam when the intensity of the song drops from the section that the slowjam was presented on
- second SV has literally no introduction or follow up, it's a once per map SV and it's way too intense while also not properly distanced
- third SV is not consistent with itself as the SV jumps accent the lyrical syllabes but they do it for 4 syllabes out of 5 before the denser part which is a flawed execution of said concept

Also regarding the second point here, everyone has their own opinion and more people dislike SV heavy maps even if they have solid justification for each of the gimmicks presented and the gimmicks are polished to the point of representing the song's nature perfectly just because they either can't play them or just dislike gimmicks, same goes for LN charts. This is not the problem here. The SVs aren't hard, they're not representing the nature of the song, this song doesn't really have a climax, it just has a slightly more intense chorus, as with a lot of anime songs and this also shows with the fact that Niks put the SVs in only three places and the first one is 41 seconds into the map.
The other thing is that there's is no introduction, there is no cue for the fact that there will be any SVs in the map, this map is literally what you would expect from a TV size chart except it just throws random stuff at you in the second half. Which is not okay.

DE-CADE wrote:

Jump SV doesn't really trouble me anyway its fun challenge for me since its used at 1 spot only and the slowdown is pretty fit there i like it very much,it doesn't ruin my accuracy. i like this map lmao