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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
Length is absolutely involved in pp values of a map, just not as much as you seem to want it.
Sliders are existent in pp formula. It looks at the shortest possible path you can take. The problem is that 1: it doesnt take into account that you have to follow the sliderball and 2: a jump will always be faster than a slider.

Map length is a difficult subject because how are you going to accurately use it in pp calculation? Should a map that's twice as long give twice as much pp? Then you will soon end up with superinflated pp ratings just because that 4* map is 20 minutes. Should a map that's similar star rating but longer always be worth more pp, even if the od is lower? When length weighting was first added people complained that it was too strong so it got nerfed, now you think it's not strong enough. It's not just something where you change 1 number and be done with it.

Also you could work on your attitude.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Map length is just weighted too little in comparison to how aim and speed values are weighted. Consistency is... lets be honest, one of harder skills to maintain because human nature of nerves and stress has his role in it. How many people out of all players in rank range from 50 to 10k are able to consistently play with high accuracy and FC in 10-20 tires marathon size maps and how many are able to do this to 1 min maps. While rank going up, more people starting to be able to play longer maps but it is still an issue if you gained your ranks by playing exclusively TV-Size maps.

Map length should have bigger impact for pp just because it is way easier to pull out 200pp score from daidai dt spamming it over and over than from for example this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/53554?m=0 - OD9 7 min vs OD 9.7 2 min map.

Here is one thing:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/53554?m=0 - 99% = ~220pp
daidai genome DT only 93% acc fc = ~223pp

Now, difficulty wise - pulling 99% on Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End is wayyy harder than pulling 93% fc on daidai genome.

Sorry for my attitude, issues with pp formula still driving me out, even that I don't play actively anymore due this particular issue.
Blueness
62 posts
Joined January 2011
Blueness
so far so good until the PerformancePlus launched.

Here is an example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/38235 I have 94.46% on DTFC and got 262pp, but the same score there are more than 310pp in the PP+

Now I'm in meditation, why the beatmap contains TONS of streams still gives less pp than a many stupid jumps like daidai gonome?
I'm really really care about the streams take up how many percentage weight in the pp system, to fc a beatmap with many high speed streams is not easy for most people, but many people can jump easily even with the touchscreen.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Because distance spacing on streams is short and for pp formula "it is worth nothing".
Yet, getting good acc on stream heavy map like River styx is super hard in comparison to 1-3x 100 daidai HDDT.

99% acc fc river styx gives same pp as HDDT 1 x 100 on daidai.

Amount of people able to pull out 99% acc fc on river styx - not many...
1 x 100 HDDT daidai - well... every single 4-digit pp farmer.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
amax
110 posts
Joined June 2015
amax
I know it was changed before ppv2 was implemented but wouldn't it be good to have a percentage of the pp gained come from the actual rank achieved on leader board of a map? I see a couple of problems that my young brain can't find solutions for, like people constantly refreshing the new ranked maps page. I thought that maybe some sort of proportion could be set for players played and time the map has been out or something but then that would make people wait for everyone else to play it. If someone does find a solution to solve this issue, would this idea still be nice?
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Tilt on English wrote:

I know it was changed before ppv2 was implemented but wouldn't it be good to have a percentage of the pp gained come from the actual rank achieved on leader board of a map? I see a couple of problems that my young brain can't find solutions for, like people constantly refreshing the new ranked maps page. I thought that maybe some sort of proportion could be set for players played and time the map has been out or something but then that would make people wait for everyone else to play it. If someone does find a solution to solve this issue, would this idea still be nice?
This is how ppv1 worked and it was shit.
Kiciuk
108 posts
Joined October 2013
Kiciuk
ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
Hydrano
36 posts
Joined September 2011
Hydrano
I played this game a lot in the past years and stopped playing it actively about a year ago. I found my skill cap I guess. The game gives no more reward for my plays. In the 4 digit ranks it's not enough to fc 5.4* maps with under 99.5% to get any pp.
Also the fact that you must full combo the maps AND get very high accuracy makes it even more unattractive in higher ranks. You can't play this game casual (1 hour max. per day) if you want some kind of positive feedback for playing it.
I just want this 'reward feeling' back when passing maps even with like 92% on long streaming maps etc. Or if I combo break just once in the middle of a map. Absolute no reward even with 99.90%. But all I get is a -1 rank after every map tho.

I just wanted to share my thoughts about this never ending topic even though I have no idea how to make it better or more rewarding. But I think many people get stuck and stop playing actively cause these reasons.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Hydrano wrote:

I played this game a lot in the past years and stopped playing it actively about a year ago. I found my skill cap I guess. The game gives no more reward for my plays. In the 4 digit ranks it's not enough to fc 5.4* maps with under 99.5% to get any pp.
Also the fact that you must full combo the maps AND get very high accuracy makes it even more unattractive in higher ranks. You can't play this game casual (1 hour max. per day) if you want some kind of positive feedback for playing it.
I just want this 'reward feeling' back when passing maps even with like 92% on long streaming maps etc. Or if I combo break just once in the middle of a map. Absolute no reward even with 99.90%. But all I get is a -1 rank after every map tho.

I just wanted to share my thoughts about this never ending topic even though I have no idea how to make it better or more rewarding. But I think many people get stuck and stop playing actively cause these reasons.
If you're not improving you shouldn't be ranking up over players who are.
E m i
E m i

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
tell that to SyeruP who SSes all stream maps below 200bpm with HDHR
tell that to Epiphany who gets 50 ur on everything
tell that to My Aim Trash who gets 60 ur on hardcore bursty 270~285bpm maps
tell that to KeigoClear who seemingly never gets 100s on 180-240bpm streams
tell that to XII who gets 80 ur on everything 290-320bpm doesn't matter how streamy it is.
tell that to all the people who had to get 70 ur on long ass OD7 marathons to SS them, for 2 more pp than some 100 ur 2x100 score.
tell that to fuckin Cookiezi who ssed this: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/102999?m=0
with 59 ur (od10.3 ss tier) just to receive some retarded 300 pp range score.

Overall, you began to imply that acc is overrated and I bet 310bpm stream maps and 420bpm alt maps are overrated too because they're DT
Barusamikosu
1,100 posts
Joined July 2014
Barusamikosu

Momiji wrote:

tell that to SyeruP who SSes all stream maps below 200bpm with HDHR
tell that to Epiphany who gets 50 ur on everything
tell that to My Aim Trash who gets 60 ur on hardcore bursty 270~285bpm maps
tell that to KeigoClear who seemingly never gets 100s on 180-240bpm streams
tell that to XII who gets 80 ur on everything 290-320bpm doesn't matter how streamy it is.
tell that to all the people who had to get 70 ur on long ass OD7 marathons to SS them, for 2 more pp than some 100 ur 2x100 score.
tell that to fuckin Cookiezi who ssed this: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/102999?m=0
with 59 ur (od10.3 ss tier) just to receive some retarded 300 pp range score.

Overall, you began to imply that acc is overrated and I bet 310bpm stream maps and 420bpm alt maps are overrated too because they're DT
Underrated post
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
^
One of reasons why I don't admit of being a polish citizen

Acc should always have highest value in pp formula, right after it combo.
E m i
E m i

[Taiga] wrote:

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
^
One of reasons why I don't admit of being a polish citizen

Acc should always have highest value in pp formula, right after it combo.
Why not make miss count stronger? Missing 4 times as much (8 miss vs 2 miss) will eat like 10% of the pp, while halving your combo will eat 50% of the aim pp.
Actually I don't mind combo being the most important, but how many times more important than miss count should it be? Twice as important, 4 times as important? I think twice as important would be ok but what the game does currently is not even funny.

Extra:
1. Misses subtract a percentage of the total pp. Missing 5% of circles in a 200 combo map (10 misses) will result in a reduction significantly lesser than missing 2% of circles in a 5000 combo map for example. One more mechanism of making short maps overrated

2. Combo doesn't consider the difficulty of the map over time, spike placement is a mechanism for making maps overrated -.-
Omnipotence -
7 posts
Joined June 2016
Omnipotence -

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
Agreed :o
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
My main complaint is the huge amount of pp given at higher accuracy at high OD even if the map is really short *cof cof OKDAD or Elmo and the Monster Coockie eater*

Instead of basing almost everything accuracy pp at OD, instead focus at giving larger pp rewards from longer maps which aren't that high OD at all. Retrying on shorter maps still getting a lucky try with higher accuracy gives people pp which they don't deserve at all because of no constancy.

While we see OD7.5 maps which are x1700 combo that gives less from accuracy scaling than silly OD+9.75 (OD8 or higher +DT) maps of under x300 combo which is kinda absurd. Accuracy at higher OD needs to be LESS EXPONENTIAL mostly because pp is not a lineal system and there is the huge mistake of making accuracy an exponential variable. While I complain too about that 97-98% HR values are extremely low but that at +99% they start becoming so overrated.

Maybe you don't know, but in some DT/HR maps with OD close to 10 and at least x850 combo length if there are the right amount of hit circles, the diference between a 95% and 100% acc is over 100 pp !! which the difference between 99% and 100% is almost the half than in 95% to 100% !!. The problem actually is by under-rewarding accuracy below 98% at higher OD but kinda over-rewarding high accuracy at that OD.

And the problem is even bigger the lower stars a map has. As I said, pp rewards doesn't work lineally and that's the problem of actual pp accuracy values. For some people a 98% acc 200 pp values +0.01 pp but 275 pp 99.50% is like +40 or even +60 pp (which CAN happen in the cases of x850 maps with 4.8 - 5.3 stars with OD between OD9 and OD10)

Apart, that I'm completely agree with that some stuff done with lower acc but still FC are satisfactory but not so well rewarded in pp.
Yatorius
14 posts
Joined May 2017
Yatorius
Um, hi, I guess
Oneberry
2 posts
Joined December 2014
Oneberry
Yess!§
Findu
6 posts
Joined September 2017
Findu
I think making the PP gain of using mods like HD and DT less. i see the skill involved in using every mod but some of them feel very overweighted pp wise.
Skeletroll
72 posts
Joined January 2017
Skeletroll
Hidden should not give any bonus pp. It is a vision mod that basically becomes a preference at AR9 and higher. It doesn't make the map any harder 99% of the time yet adds loads of PP.
Ahnanmi
Ahnanmi
I guess :D
Loli_Rells
Loli_Rells
!
simtom
6 posts
Joined December 2010
simtom
Is it true ar11 gives +30% bonus PP ?
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
https://puu.sh/yXzIE/97309fb326.png 30% bonus aim PP so basically yes since AR11 is only used on the very balanced TV size "aim" maps out there, and we all know it's definitely not memorization so it's totally normal that it gives that much of a bonus XD. Not to mention the ridiculous bonus for OD11 too even on low acc but that's normal too right ?

Also it's basically the last thing Tom ever did with PP, 3 years ago. https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=pp
-GN
Champion Above Champions
734 posts
Joined June 2011
-GN
agreed on the accuracy thing at least. high accuracy on low OD(SS/single digit 100s on marathons) is underrated as well
Frikandel
200 posts
Joined December 2013
Frikandel
AR11 +30% WTF! I never knew that. Seems a bit excessive.

HD is free pp on almost every map that is already a pp map, because the patterns are super easy. In my experience it only makes streams harder the spacier they are. And, I am less capable of reading triples in big jumps when playing HDHR. This is just a personal thing but it is definitely caused by HD.
FINGERLOCK
153 posts
Joined March 2014
FINGERLOCK
is it ever realistic to believe that sliders will be properly weighted?
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
I highly doubt it. It's too difficult and too much work for the small team that osu has.
simtom
6 posts
Joined December 2010
simtom

Kynan wrote:

https://puu.sh/yXzIE/97309fb326.png 30% bonus aim PP so basically yes since AR11 is only used on the very balanced TV size "aim" maps out there, and we all know it's definitely not memorization so it's totally normal that it gives that much of a bonus XD. Not to mention the ridiculous bonus for OD11 too even on low acc but that's normal too right ?

Also it's basically the last thing Tom ever did with PP, 3 years ago. https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=pp
So in 2-3 years every top score will be hdhrdt and anyone who can't read ar11 wont be able to compete. Shouldn't AR be a preference like it is in mania? You could just as easily give +30% pp for low AR because some people find it harder to aim there.
I TheCzar I
1 post
Joined December 2017
I TheCzar I

Tom94 wrote:

Hello everyone,

please leave your feedback for the Standard mode performance ranking here. Every suggestion is appreciated!

Changes to the system are documented in the changelog.


Its very good!
RudiStyle
1 post
Joined November 2017
RudiStyle
._.
TghMonster
1 post
Joined March 2018
TghMonster
Does acount standing can affect off pp gaining?? because in my dashboard historitical i get 26pp but in profile it's only counted 6 pp idk it's going so hard to gainning pp
sampai_
1 post
Joined May 2018
sampai_
@above https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Performance_Points#why-didn't-i-gain-the-full-amount-of-pp-from-a-map-i-played?
MTG
11 posts
Joined May 2018
MTG
Euh... bah c'est trop simple a avoir les pp
OriginallsSky
1 post
Joined October 2016
OriginallsSky
I do not get the right amount of pp that I should earn
In my profile it shows that I won 12 but in fact I did not get any pp

Help
dellar68
25 posts
Joined August 2018
dellar68
Loved beatmaps should have pp
Mec_old_1
7 posts
Joined January 2017
Mec_old_1
Hello:) here is a old map, i just back this game want to Rank it.
I hope i can get some advise for rank. thanks.
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/634927/#osu/1347057
Last edited by Mec_old_1 , edited 1 time in total.
Refills
318 posts
Joined October 2017
Refills

Mec wrote:

Hello:) here is a old map, i just back this game want to Rank it.
I hope i can get some advise for rank. thanks.
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/634927/#osu/1347057

not the place to ask
[Shiny]
153 posts
Joined June 2014
[Shiny]
Why don't make PP scores works as the same way as ranked score? Making one PP score per mapset would help very much in the most polemic PP problem nowadays: the farming (especially in those maps where the only purpose they exist is for PP farming)
Last edited by [Shiny] , edited 1 time in total.
Vens
33 posts
Joined March 2017
Vens
Is it possible that in due time, something will be done to balance DT and FL pp wise?

They both propose a 0.12 increase in score yet they yield such a different pp value that it makes FL worthless to someone who can go fast. As well as making it seem as if someone with good memory is equivalent in skill to a rather, very fast play. It also blocks off people from setting higher pp scores on a map that they already have a FL score on. Unsurprisingly that's the case I'm in in fact.

Say you were to take 2 notes. Each note is hit for 300 score, then multiplied by each mod (and combo) to 1008 score. However the PP value they have could easily be drastically different, so why isn't the score as well? It makes setting better pp scores (for example, on a map that you really love to play) pretty hard if you want to mod it a bit.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Portall wrote:

It also blocks off people from setting higher pp scores on a map that they already have a FL score on. Unsurprisingly that's the case I'm in in fact.
This hasn't been the case for quite a while now. osu! saves all scores made with different mod combinations and the one that's worth the most pp is the one that gets used.


Portall wrote:

Say you were to take 2 notes. Each note is hit for 300 score, then multiplied by each mod (and combo) to 1008 score. However the PP value they have could easily be drastically different, so why isn't the score as well? It makes setting better pp scores (for example, on a map that you really love to play) pretty hard if you want to mod it a bit.
Because score predates pp by about 7 years.
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