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Why would you want to be a machine in 2070's?

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Topic Starter
abraker
It's the year 2075 and you are becoming old. You probably have around 20 years left to live before cancer or some shit gets you. However, thanks to new advances in technology, you can get yourself digitized. Marketed as "InfiniLife" by some company, you can transfer your mind into a machine and live on. Unfortunately your life insurance would becomes null, and health insurance will cover only a quarter of the 500k cost for such an operation. It is becoming rapidly popular to digitize yourself and some folks use their retirement savings to escape death, while others are hoping to win the lotto. If you have nothing, they offer a special program where they give you a loan with a high interest rate, and after you get digitized, you are expected to work until you pay it off.


Born to late to explore the earth, born to early to explore the galaxy. - Internet
roshan117
IT would get paid a lot of money then
Vuelo Eluko

abraker wrote:

It's the year 2075 and you are becoming old. You probably have around 20 years left to live
The fact that you think I'm going to live to be over 120 is flattering. Most people in my family are lucky to hit 70.
B1rd
I think people overestimate the rate of technological advance, and I doubt something so complex such as conciousness will ever be transferred to technology. Conciousness and physiology are dependent on each other, and you can't just mimic life and a human body with technology.

Also, the answer is fuck no, I'd rather die a human. Imagine your entire being being controlled the same way as an system administrator controls a computer network. Digitalising yourself would be fundamentally, completely and irrevocably giving up your autonomy over yourself and everything that makes you a human. Not just your rights and your physical safety, but even your thoughts and inherent nature would be able to be controlled by other people. It's basically akin to selling your soul.
Topic Starter
abraker

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

The fact that you think I'm going to live to be over 120 is flattering. Most people in my family are lucky to hit 70.
120 - 50 = 70
2070 - 50 = 2020

:thonkang:

B1rd wrote:

I doubt something so complex such as conciousness will ever be transferred to technology
I can imagine how it might be done, but saying that it's harder than rocket science is a huge understatement. Essentially you would need to hook onto each neural pathway and have signal splitting and joining from and to the new medium. Even after that, the thalamus, (region of the brain responsible for sensory perception) and the Claustrum (seams to be at least partially responsible for consciousness), would need extra care to make seamless switch from signals being forwarded to the new medium. Otherwise you risk getting a discontinuity, which I believe to the difference between a copy and transfer. This would be similar to a CPU executing an instruction and you want to suddenly transfer the entire state of that operation to another CPU midway through that operation. Doesn't sound fun.

B1rd wrote:

Digitalising yourself would be fundamentally, completely and irrevocably giving up your autonomy over yourself and everything that makes you a human. Not just your rights and your physical safety, but even your thoughts and inherent nature would be able to be controlled by other people. It's basically akin to selling your soul.
Too me, if it's not open source, it's a risk factor. There is no knowing what spyware or other shady stuff developers of the tech could incorporate into it.
Ryoid
Do it have a risk?
kai99
it is 2100, people realize there arent enough resources to keep maintaining all the machines present in society and it's been long since the last human baby was born. the human species are mostly extinct at this point and despite the recent efforts to find another planet to get resources from, there hasnt been any success. some of the machines have shut down.
DJ Enetro
... but the machines don’t have to breathe oxygen right? So all they have to do is build a rocket, calculate when they will be attracted by gravity to Mars or some other planet, and then get more materials from there.
Zekks
B1rd

abraker wrote:

I can imagine how it might be done, but saying that it's harder than rocket science is a huge understatement. Essentially you would need to hook onto each neural pathway and have signal splitting and joining from and to the new medium. Even after that, the thalamus, (region of the brain responsible for sensory perception) and the Claustrum (seams to be at least partially responsible for consciousness), would need extra care to make seamless switch from signals being forwarded to the new medium. Otherwise you risk getting a discontinuity, which I believe to the difference between a copy and transfer. This would be similar to a CPU executing an instruction and you want to suddenly transfer the entire state of that operation to another CPU midway through that operation. Doesn't sound fun.


Rocket science is child's play. But converting the biological to the technological is something I don't even think it possible. There are so many biological processes that go on in the body, and physiology, even when not directly related to your brain, affects your conciousness in ways that are impossible to tell. I doubt that it would be possible to digitalise conciousness without first being able to use technology to mimic life, down to the cells and genes, which in the first place is impossible because you can't build life with technology. It would be more feasible to clone yourself, but that wouldn't be transfer.
Topic Starter
abraker

B1rd wrote:

There are so many biological processes that go on in the body, and physiology, even when not directly related to your brain, affects your conciousness in ways that are impossible to tell.
While it is true that many things affect your conscious like gut bacteria, those are not critical for the conscience. What biological processes are you referring to if I missed the point?
B1rd
I'm not a brain scientist but I'm pretty sure that the physical nature of the brain with it's neural circuits, neuroplasticity, and how it is affected by different chemical and hormones play a big part in your conciousness. How are you supposed to emulate how living cells work with technology? Because even if you can achieve conciousness, the chances are that technological conciousness will be radically different that biological conciousness and you won't even resemble your former self.
Topic Starter
abraker

B1rd wrote:

I'm not a brain scientist but I'm pretty sure that the physical nature of the brain with it's neural circuits, neuroplasticity, and how it is affected by different chemical and hormones play a big part in your conciousnes
Well, hormones affect the way you respond and nueroplasticity affects how your mind develops. Neither of the two are critical parts of the consciousness, but are critical parts of how you behave and develop. Consciousness is what you perceive as is, not how you respond to things as is. That has to do with different parts extending to memory and what-not, which people can loose and still be fine as far as conscious goes.

Neural circuits I think is the only thing that allows the conscious to be. Everything else (hormones, etc) is behavior related (how the brain deals with info, not the observable actions your body takes). How the brain deals with info either goes after conscious or around it, but conscious can never respond to how the brain deals with info directly, only the effects of it.

To put it simply, if the conscious part is to be aware of how the brain deals with info directly, I think then there would be nothing stopping it from developing a way to directly control it via neuroplasticity. This would mean you would be in direct control of how you remember things, how you release hormones, etc., which is not the case.

examples for whatever it's worth
Example of active behavior: You don't suddenly get hungry, decide to eat and then become aware you are hungry. You first become become hungry, then aware you are hungry, then decide to eat.

Example of passive behavior: Your hormones affect your behavior or change bodily functions. That changed behavior can be applied after the conscious has dealt with information from your senses such that you are aware of what is going on. That information then gets passes onto the hormone affected portions of the mind which creates observable actions your body takes (butterflies in stomach, shock, etc). That gets fed back into the brain, your conscious, and then you become aware you are being affected by hormones.

Example of conscious bypass: In the case of hand on hot stove, the behavior to remove hand is a reflex action that bypasses the conscience. You only become aware of it after the reflex and never decided to remove the hand.
kai99

[ - Zekks - ] wrote:

how to grow cermet
B1rd

abraker wrote:

Well, hormones affect the way you respond and nueroplasticity affects how your mind develops. Neither of the two are critical parts of the consciousness, but are critical parts of how you behave and develop. Consciousness is what you perceive as is, not how you respond to things as is. That has to do with different parts extending to memory and what-not, which people can loose and still be fine as far as conscious goes.

Neural circuits I think is the only thing that allows the conscious to be. Everything else behavior related (how the brain deals with info, not the observable actions your body takes). Behaviour either goes after conscious or around it, but conscious can never respond to behavior. For example, you don't suddenly get hungry, decide to eat and then become aware you are hungry. You first become become hungry, then aware you are hungry, then decide to eat. Or in the case of hand on hot stove, the behavior to remove hand is a reflex action that bypasses the conscience. You only become aware of it after the reflex and never decided to remove the hand .
We perceive the world in a way that is helpful to our existence. We perceive food how it does because it is essential for our survival and because it is pleasurable to eat. We perceive a home - just an assembly of different materials with a vacant space inside - as a place where we can be warm and safe, relax, be with our family et cetera. We feel emotions like love and jealousy because they are useful in influencing our behaviour in ways that are beneficial to us or the species in general. We value things like science and philosophy for the same reasons.

And so lets say we have a robot, that has conciousness, however it won't be like a human, obviously. What use it food, or a home to a robot? What use is love and companionship? What use is science and philosophy? A robot doesn't need things things; it doesn't need to care about the world because the world barely affects it. All it needs is a minimal amount of energy and maintenance, and presumably, it can artificially stimulate any emotion or simulation about the world it wishes. In other words, it would only need to be a part of the world so far as to ensure it has energy and maintenance. Everything that us humans value would become completely meaningless to it.

And that is presuming that it will have emotion, which it probably wouldn't because emotions are stimulated by hormones. Maybe a more fundamental issue is: why would a human care to continue existing? Wanting to live is a biological imperative, there is no apparent logical reason why existence is better than nonexistence.

So, lets say you could achieve conciousness as you've defined it as a robot. You would either do nothing but ensure you have energy and maintenance, and plug yourself into a hedonism simulator. Or, you would have no emotions whatsoever, no reason to live or do anything at all. Even if you could perceive the world you would have no reason to think or do anything. You would for all intents and purposes, be a brick "with conciousness". Does either of those things sound attractive to you?
Topic Starter
abraker

B1rd wrote:

You would for all intents and purposes, be a brick "with conciousness". Does either of those things sound attractive to you?
You hit the nail on the head, and that is something to consider before going becoming machine in 2070's. It would take far more time to replicate emotion after mind transfer is possible due to the lack of hormones and other chemical processes. Even after deciding becoming machine and to wait for emotion enabled tech to be available, odds are that you will be affected long enough by the lack of them to no longer care.

Huh, almost like drugs.
Serraionga
Topic Starter
abraker

Serraionga wrote:

80's had some taste
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