fieryrage wrote:

ok i have to make a separate post for this

• 1) why are your finish hitsounds overused in the kiais? it makes playing this song without your hitsounds feel like complete ass because all i can hear is just "pop pop pop pop" where there should be vocals and, you know, not finishes
  no
  
  2) on the topic of hitsounds, WHY are the whistles substitute clap hitsounds? what is even the purpose of doing that, just make them actual whistles or some other sound besides a snare
  no
  
  3) why do your streams in the kiai follow vocals at some points in terms of spacing changes but then go to drums like 01:01:624 (1) - here during this entire stream?
  no
  
  4) what's wrong with your nc's like 00:51:724 (1,1) - this literally screams unpolished 00:51:874 (1) - This NC is consistent for the number of streams .00:51:874 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14) - 00:53:224 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14) -
  
  5) 00:55:624 (1,2,3,4,5) - where is the emphasis on literally any of these patterns? because 00:57:124 (1,2,3,4) - you seem 00:58:024 (1,2,3,4,5) - to be 00:59:524 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - changing 01:07:624 (1,2) - emphasis 01:19:024 (1,2,3,4) - quite 01:20:524 (2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - a 01:22:324 (1,2,3,4,5) - lot
  no
  
  6) 01:19:924 (6,7,8,9) - this is not straight, unpolished, although this is more of a minor thing anyway
  no
  
  7) 01:22:624 (4) - nc every downbeat but then this isn't? what? I can't understand why I need Nc here
  
  8) 01:28:624 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this blatantly ignores rhythm for no reason, same thing with the next pattern, you could be following vocals or guitar here but it's just 1/4 spam??? 01:27:424 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - 01:29:824 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Really?
  
  9) 02:15:424 (1) - what the absolute fuck is this no
  
  10) 02:25:024 (1) - hitsounds randomly get 30% louder here?? no
  
  11) 02:28:024 (2,3) - 02:29:224 (2,3) - these are the same distance but different gaps in rhythm, why? no
  
  12) 02:41:824 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - don't you think this is a TINY bit overmapped considering the part before it?
  Is this really overmapped? There is enough intense guitar sound to support this paragraph
  
  12) 02:45:274 (4,1) - why? no, like, genuinely, why? how do you imagine this as a playable pattern? you're introducing a concept like this 3 minutes into the map, you are LITERALLY asking for people to break here no
  
  13) 02:51:424 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) - i've legitimately seen more structured stream patterns from unranked mappers, like 02:51:724 (5) - why isn't the direction change on the white ticks? it shouldn't be on the blue ticks, that ignores rhythm entirely no
  
  14) 02:55:624 (1,2,3) - yeah, no, please actually stop doing this, your map is unplayable at this point no

not to mention the fact that the 100 bpm sections aren't even warranted considering the only things mapped in those sections are spinners, it should be a consistent 200 bpm throughout the entire song no

i seriously can't be bothered to look at this map more, it's not ready for ranking at all. the fact this even was considered as anything near a rankable map basically just proves the existence of a double-standard in the mapping community, as if it weren't proven already by monstrata being able to rank literally fucking anything

Yes, you're too lazy to look at this map. So what are you writing so much for? Do you promote your sense of being? Or just because your high ranking can do this? This is not an mod.

why did this get through with like 10 mods it so very clearly needs a LOT more than that?

Natsu wrote:

If the mod is disrespectful then the mapper don't need to reply to it

Mun wrote:

Whether the mod was respectful or not, the points it brings up are entirely valid, and just responding "no" is not a valid defense - just a segue into more shitfighting.

Shouldn't this be DQ'd until 09kami provides some sort of valid defense against the vehemently negative reaction this has received from mappers - something he has utterly failed to do?

MashaSG wrote:

Wtf is this guy ranking one of the most beautiful Dragonforce's song that badly and just answer to actual points in mods by copying "no"? Where is QAT members??? Many people ( even BNs and previous BNs ) have many suggestions for the map to increase it's quality, isn't this the reason to DQ this?

I'm sure this would got DQ in 2 days or so, but if it wouldn't, I will "join party" and write mod as well

Actually, I don't mind dq. if there's a better hitnormal. stubbornness doesn't make sense, but it takes better advice to break it . The map doesn't make everyone feel good. If it doesn't make you feel good, I'm sorry, but I hope you look at it in an objective way

fieryrage wrote:

6) 01:19:924 (6,7,8,9) - this is not straight, unpolished, although this is more of a minor thing anyway
I don't think it's a kind of mod.. Is it straight? Is it important?

12) 02:45:274 (4,1) - why? no, like, genuinely, why? how do you imagine this as a playable pattern? you're introducing a concept like this 3 minutes into the map, you are LITERALLY asking for people to break here
I can't understand why I can't do it here

Natsu wrote:

If the mod is disrespectful then the mapper don't need to reply to it

MashaSG wrote:

Wtf is this guy ranking one of the most beautiful Dragonforce's song that badly and just answer to actual points in mods by copying "no"? Where is QAT members??? Many people ( even BNs and previous BNs ) have many suggestions for the map to increase it's quality, isn't this the reason to DQ this?

I'm sure this would got DQ in 2 days or so, but if it wouldn't, I will "join party" and write mod as well

Raiden wrote:

I would also like to point out that the switch to 200 should be at 02:41:824 - . Currently there are double the necessary downbeats

Reset back to 100 at 03:22:624 -

And back to 200 at 03:37:024 -

Current timing playwise is fine but musical accuracy is ignored

(also for extra accuracy 01:17:824 - red line with 200 for "NC friendliness" or "metronome reset";

similarly 02:44:224 - here)

gratz tho, more DragonForce is always welcome 👀

Kagetsu wrote:

hmm... the thing that bothers me the most about this map is the lack of contrast between intense and non-intense beats. the streams are so poorly (in my opinion) implemented that it's difficult to actually feel the song when playing.

for example, around 04:29:674 - you start mapping an endless deathstream using only spacing changes in order to somehow represent the song variations, which sounds good on paper, but the thing you're ignoring here is that after such high density, the patterns start to feel difficult regardless of the spacing shifts. there's a guideline in the ranking criteria that states: "Avoid following multiple layers of the song if it is unclear what rhythm is prioritizing. Players should be able to discern what part of the song is being followed." which doesn't seem to be followed here, as it's pretty difficult to recognize what your arrangements are mapped to.
04:29:674 (1) - Hummm... I've thought about it. This section follows Voice ., but there's a section in the middle that I need to filter through 04:30:424 - 04:30:649 - There are several similar ones that are rhythmic only .I've thought that if the spacing is lowered, maybe people will understand that .But what I want to say is that the rhythm here is stream too .If change here, I think all of them need to be changed. And this change is the whole map.I think I have a clear purpose. It's part of the voice .I've made a lot of concessions about the difficulty. I don't think it's difficult for everyone to play now .what you said is a very good point of view .thx


other things i'd like to point:

most of your direction changes feel random in my opinion, your streams are extremely inconsistent on sections such as 03:41:824 - where things like 03:43:399 (6,7,8,9,10) - are tremendously difficult for no reason
well. all don't seem to like it here. I changed my angle to a very simple angle


your map contains a lot of snapping mistakes. i'm pretty sure that stuff like 03:01:924 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) - 03:57:424 (1,2,3,4,5) - are 1/3.
no. I noticed in many places that the guitar was 1/3., but I only followed a small part .because I made a mistake on another map(https://osu.ppy.sh/s/459901). It's because of 1/3 .I always remember this mod. when you frequently switch between 1/3 and 1/4. in a stream, the player is very out of tune. This is not a good idea .switching between 1/4 and 1/3 will be difficult for players to master
Avoid following multiple layers of the song if it is unclear what rhythm is prioritizing. Players should be able to discern what part of the song is being followed."
and I think the red line sounds(no hitsounds) good enough to support these using 1/4

you have many streams that follow nothing. 04:11:824 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - 02:45:424 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - just to mention a few
same

Naotoshi wrote:

the mapper should respond to all mods properly, respectful or not... ignoring them cuz he doesn't find them nice and coddling is stupid =D

sdafsf wrote:

i dont understand much about hitsounding but while this is disqualified i have concerns with the emphesis on the streams.

in some parts you accentuate beats by placing them on the turn of the stream like:
04:09:424 (1) - , 04:33:424 (1) - , 04:38:224 (1) - , 04:48:124 (1) -
04:09:424 (1) - emmm... I think it's ok. because of the shortening of the spacing 04:09:424 (1,2,3,4) -
04:33:424 (1) - About here. I can understand the idea at the time. The turning point in the white of the drums. 04:33:124 (13,14,15,16) - But you reminded me. I should slow down here .like 04:37:924 (13,14,15,16) -
04:38:224 (1) - Emmm... I may know why you have any doubts about these places . 04:38:224 - This place is a drum sound and coincides with the long sound of the human voice .when sufficient conditions are supported, this rotation gives the player an accelerated sense of power .Also, the deceleration ahead is enough to allow the player to adapt to this segment .
04:48:124 (1) - same
About the angle of the corner, I don't think it's necessary to adjust the angle to the same, because the only thing you need is to let the player feel the effect. Most of the same angle doesn't make sense

but in some parts you place the beat before the accentuated beat on the turn of the stream like:
03:43:024 (1) - , 03:43:624 (9) - 03:44:224 (1) - , 03:57:424 (1) - , etc.
on.I changed it here in the mod above

these are just some examples the it is incosistent throughout the whole map.

also i dont know why this is accentuated 03:42:274 (7) - .
03:42:424 (9) - this should be instead.
same

maybe im misunderstanding your structure. im interested in an explanation.

zigizigiefe wrote:

I would want to point out a consistency issue

00:45:874 (11) - You forgot to add clap sound as you did for 01:36:874 (1) - or 04:29:674 (1) - or other parts where Marc says "zone", so it doesn't emphasize "zone".
on.sorry .It was a mistake. I corrected it > <

Okorin wrote:

so why do you halve bpm on spinners to then immediately double it again?

i mean if you halve it it shoulda stayed halved until like 02:41:824 -
but even that doesnt seem necessary

There are some differences. I think I need to change the BPM to 100. BPM is now modified to be provided by Raiden


03:55:324 (1,2,3,4) - this is 1/3??

fix

those hihats that you use as a hitnormal are so much louder than everything else >_<

fix


taking this down to further discuss the things that were mentioned properly because a lot of the things that you just said "no" to were actually not hostile
I picked up some of the items that need to be modified and put it on the separate Post above

09kami wrote:

I don't follow a fixed pendulum. It makes the map very boring, but I fix a rhythm at each section .same to stream. in my opinion, a lot of stream can do it in different ways .but this can become inconsistent in some people's eyes .This is not a kind of targeted speech. I mean. Everyone has different opinions .But I'm used to looking at this from a variety of perspectives .That's what I learned when I followed HW .Creation, change .

sdafsf wrote:

consistency and creativity are not mutually exclusive

09kami wrote:

But I'm used to looking at this from a variety of perspectives .That's what I learned when I followed HW .Creation, change .

sdafsf wrote:

09kami wrote:

I don't follow a fixed pendulum. It makes the map very boring, but I fix a rhythm at each section .same to stream. in my opinion, a lot of stream can do it in different ways .but this can become inconsistent in some people's eyes .This is not a kind of targeted speech. I mean. Everyone has different opinions .But I'm used to looking at this from a variety of perspectives .That's what I learned when I followed HW .Creation, change .

so your point is basically consistency is boring and uncreative?
i disagree with that in the first place but i dont think having the emphesis points in your stream off by one object makes your map any more interesting as it is.
consistency and creativity are not mutually exclusive

Shiirn wrote:

HW himself was extremely consistent. Like, wow, his maps are absurdly consistent and predictable. They're just crazy creative and interpretive. But misunderstanding creativity to mean "making up random stuff" is such a cute thing to do. It's literally what makes most newbie maps so adorably awful.

But practice makes perfect.

pkhg wrote:

why is the mp3 so bad lol

1. I know people already mentioned it, but could you improve your map visually ? This does not really impact the gameplay a lot, but it doesn't make eyes bleeding. Small details can make your map a lot of times better visually, trust me.
   Some streams are really weird-shaped and not really polished like
   
   - 00:54:274 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - when you can make something better shaped :
   
   SPOILER

   
   
   - 03:41:824 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) -
   
   SPOILER

   
   
   - 04:45:274 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) - : you just have to move 04:46:024 (11) - a little on the left for a perfect shape.
   
   
2. This could be considered as a rhythm choice issue : 01:19:174 (2) - when you start the slider on the red tick (so this very important tick 01:19:324 (3) - is only followed and not played (and it should be played)) but you do the "right" thing 01:21:424 (1,2) - , so is there any reason ? Variating patterns is not really a good idea if you don't really emphasize the right notes, this current example is the perfect example of what you should not do if you want to vary patterns. If you want to keep variating, then keep emphasizing the "right" (by "right" i mean strongest/most important) notes. So you should make this tick 01:19:324 - clicked
   
3. 02:45:499 (2) - There is definitely nothing audible on this blue tick, why do you follow it ? (even the guitar isn't snapped on it)

Shiirn wrote:

Don't use HW as an excuse if you're doing the exact opposite of what he/she does, hahahaha.

Neptune wrote:

09kami take my star as a sign of my appreciation for this masterpiece

Cherry Blossom wrote:

Did i see someone mentioning "HW" here ?
Before this goes for qualified section could you look at these following points ? :3

1. I know people already mentioned it, but could you improve your map visually ? This does not really impact the gameplay a lot, but it doesn't make eyes bleeding. Small details can make your map a lot of times better visually, trust me.
   Some streams are really weird-shaped and not really polished like
   
   - 00:54:274 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - when you can make something better shaped :
   
   SPOILER

   
   fix
   
   - 03:41:824 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) -
   
   SPOILER

   
   It's a strange suggestion. I don't think they have to be round .the ellipse is actually a spin. u mentioned the "polished". A detail is ignored. that's the AR. of this picture. when you're at test or playauto, you'll see. they don't look like edit .It's just a turn .but the difference between an ellipse and a circle is that the speed of rotation is different. what mapper and player see is different .that's why I've been looking for someone to test the map. Some places I need to look at them from their perspective .But on this question, I choose to respect your opinion, because I always think you are a great mapper. So I reworked the place. I modified some ellipses for the circle .so I reworked the place
   
   - 04:45:274 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) - : you just have to move 04:46:024 (11) - a little on the left for a perfect shape.
   emmm.....According to your idea, I just need to change the position of 04:44:824 (1,2) - . 04:45:274 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) - Some subtle spins
   
   
2. This could be considered as a rhythm choice issue : 01:19:174 (2) - when you start the slider on the red tick (so this very important tick 01:19:324 (3) - is only followed and not played (and it should be played)) but you do the "right" thing 01:21:424 (1,2) - , so is there any reason ? Variating patterns is not really a good idea if you don't really emphasize the right notes, this current example is the perfect example of what you should not do if you want to vary patterns. If you want to keep variating, then keep emphasizing the "right" (by "right" i mean strongest/most important) notes. So you should make this tick 01:19:324 - clicked
   fix.I agree with that, but it's very difficult to grasp the most important sound when it comes to the switch between voice and accompaniment .Some people will say, "why do you follow the two? It's confusing! "but balance the vocals and the accompaniment to complete a map. You know, when it's done, it'll be very cool. remove not adapted things .complete this mapping. that's what I'm doing
   
3. 02:45:499 (2) - There is definitely nothing audible on this blue tick, why do you follow it ? (even the guitar isn't snapped on it)
   02:45:499 - There is an extension of the guitar here .02:45:424 - 02:45:949 - In fact, I believe it is a complete guitar sound because it has no sense of pause .02:46:024 (1) - But starting here, the change can be clearly distinguished .02:45:424 (1) - I'll change it here to 1/4 slider.maybe it will make you accept it .

No kd.

xDololow wrote:

small thing

04:17:824 (1,1) - how about end those sliders on red ticks ( 04:18:274 and 04:18:874 .) , because it more feet the music. And make them more wiggly?
hummm...fix to 04:18:274 - because there's a change in the guitar sounds here .but 04:18:874 - not added. If choose the weaker drums here .will conflict with 04:18:424 (1) .

0w^

MaestroSplinter wrote:

So this is mapping has become, people complaining about every single object that the mapper has placed, even going disrespecfull and expect to someone listen him...


^We reached this point ? Someone needs to call respect ?

Mun wrote:

MaestroSplinter wrote:

So this is mapping has become, people complaining about every single object that the mapper has placed, even going disrespecfull and expect to someone listen him...


^We reached this point ? Someone needs to call respect ?

Discourse is not disrespect, and if anyone can't handle this level of discourse, they probably shouldn't be putting their own work out into a community that is centered almost entirely around the judging of said work. I'd even go so far as to say that avoiding providing any sort of thoughtful criticism in a map that you see needs work is far more disrespectful, and even patronizing. At the end of the day, the goal isn't to be disrespectful to 09kami, it's to make the map better before it's brought into the ranked section, a section of "finalized works."

But you need to know about "mod". It's about map communication .the premise of communication is that it can be discussed with mapper .when language is offensive, this is no respect. would u casually greet a stranger with offensive words on the street? at least I won't . for instance.when your map is Qualified, I'll use Chinese to "mod"(and based on the fact that I understand the need to use English.) .but my "mod" is based on maps .what would you think? think this is a mod or a provocation? at least for fieryrage's speech. I think it's the same effect . u can see my response to other people. I believe everyone has answered them in detail .that's what I call a kind of respect .At least I think that "mod" must be based on communication, and that exchanges are based on the most basic equal dialogue
edit : If you don't respect me, why do I need my map to respect what you call "mod"?" yes, you can say. You don't need to respect "mod". You just need to change it .So why should I change it? Can you make sure that what you mentioned is correct? You answered, "yes, because I found these mistakes! " Since I don't respect your mod, why should I take notice of your findings? I just want to say "no". mapper is not a machine. It's not when you type an error that you change it .the path to a map entering ranked is through mapper. at least I won't accept rude "mod". about maps. In my eyes, it's a formal occasion .

destruction zone

01:16:774 (5) - I opened the map and saw this - you should add a hitwhistle here! The sound in the song is almost entirely consistent with 01:16:174 (1,2,3,4) - but the lack of a hitsound + the difference in spacing makes it look and feel more like an entirely different beat. fix

As for consistency, the map is highly inconsistent, but I haven't seen any real reason provided for it. For example, look at the 2 measures starting at 01:17:824 - vs the 2 measures starting immediately after them at 01:20:224 - the rhythm changes completely in the middle of it. Major rhythmic inconsistencies like these are evident throughout the map.
About consistency .I don't even have to open the map to know what you're trying to say...consistency is not a necessary thing. It's just a condition. a mapping. This map varies in two ways based on voice and accompaniment .when you think you need to maintain a high degree of consistency, it's different from this map, mapping's policy .but I don't mean there's no need for consistency .consistency is not a requirement. There is no need for a whole map to maintain a consistency. Some details, etc. I'll read the map tomorrow and explain
edit : It looks just like I guess .

Beyond that, what's with your streams? For example, check out 01:36:124 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - it's quite obviously hand-placed, but the curve is extremely rough and abrasive looking. Do you have a reason not to use more consistent curves in your streams?
all streams just hand-placed.Is there any doubt about that? Do you have a reason not to use more consistent curves in your streams
So why more consistent? what you mean is the need for bigger flow., simpler streams ?no. Streams does not have to meet all the needs of everyone .It's just because you think .In fact, does it make sense to adjust it to a perfect arc? This is just looking pretty pretty in edit. For this AR., some ugly angles can have a more intuitive effect on test .

After that, why emphasize 01:36:874 (1) - instead of 01:37:024 (3) - ? Sure, the word "zone" starts at 01:36:874 (1) - but it's obvious to anyone listening that the most intensely emphasized note here is at 01:37:024 (3) - .

So I think it's too much trouble to explain these things. I've explained the same thing in front of post .according to your idea, should even delete 01:36:949 (2) -.01:37:024 (3) - As a place to start .but isn't that the way you choose it? but it's obvious to anyone listening that the most intensely emphasized note here is at 01:37:024 (3) - . are you sure it's anyone? I don't agree with that .I think it's necessary to follow "ZONE".
Such emphasis and construction issues are present throughout the map.

Mun wrote:

MaestroSplinter wrote:

So this is mapping has become, people complaining about every single object that the mapper has placed, even going disrespecfull and expect to someone listen him...


^We reached this point ? Someone needs to call respect ?

Discourse is not disrespect, and if anyone can't handle this level of discourse, they probably shouldn't be putting their own work out into a community that is centered almost entirely around the judging of said work. I'd even go so far as to say that avoiding providing any sort of thoughtful criticism in a map that you see needs work is far more disrespectful, and even patronizing. At the end of the day, the goal isn't to be disrespectful to 09kami, it's to make the map better before it's brought into the ranked section, a section of "finalized works."

destruction zone

01:16:774 (5) - I opened the map and saw this - you should add a hitwhistle here! The sound in the song is almost entirely consistent with 01:16:174 (1,2,3,4) - but the lack of a hitsound + the difference in spacing makes it look and feel more like an entirely different beat.

As for consistency, the map is highly inconsistent, but I haven't seen any real reason provided for it. For example, look at the 2 measures starting at 01:17:824 - vs the 2 measures starting immediately after them at 01:20:224 - the rhythm changes completely in the middle of it. Major rhythmic inconsistencies like these are evident throughout the map.
Beyond that, what's with your streams? For example, check out 01:36:124 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - it's quite obviously hand-placed, but the curve is extremely rough and abrasive looking. Do you have a reason not to use more consistent curves in your streams?
After that, why emphasize 01:36:874 (1) - instead of 01:37:024 (3) - ? Sure, the word "zone" starts at 01:36:874 (1) - but it's obvious to anyone listening that the most intensely emphasized note here is at 01:37:024 (3) - .
Such emphasis and construction issues are present throughout the map.