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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Lugli
3 posts
Joined July 2016
Lugli
Well, maybe someone already asked this, so, sorry but i will re-ask it.


Why, when i score a 98% acc in a 3,5/4,3 song, im not earning any pp? and, the "weight" i recieve is of 1% when i strike those scores in MY FIRST TRY.

Here is a ss

https://gyazo.com/ddbbe7d0d09affcd4926f1fec0bb6994

Thanks for reading, i want to know why im not weigthing normal. Cause, for example, "Tranquility "In my room" <- that one is a 3,7 stars difficulty and i weigthed it in a 100%, i dont really understand the system :l
snyviper
87 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper

Lugli wrote:

... i dont really understand the system :l
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Points check "Weightage system".
Soar
284 posts
Joined March 2010
Soar
I was thinking about why old map is not high pp enough, and I concluded that's because it doesn't apply changing the shape

For example


linear shape is easier than


bending shape

(Ignore the difficulty from distance between the circle, I can't find the different shape with same distance)



It also can make slider hard with adding tick
For example


linear slider is easier than


bending shape

I wonder does pp already apply this concept
Haxwill
172 posts
Joined March 2016
Haxwill
I think that your rank placement should have some effect on your PP gained, not a lot of an effect, but maybe like 5-10% difference. that might also encourage players to play levels that are new or less popular. I also hear FL has the same PP multiplier as hidden... obviously, flashlight is much harder than hidden, i think it should be a little bit higher
E m i
E m i

destroyerwilly wrote:

I think that your rank placement should have some effect on your PP gained, not a lot of an effect, but maybe like 5-10% difference. that might also encourage players to play levels that are new or less popular. I also hear FL has the same PP multiplier as hidden... obviously, flashlight is much harder than hidden, i think it should be a little bit higher

Momiji wrote:

Hidden bonus = 18% aim, 2% accuracy
Flashlight bonus = 50% aim, 2% accuracy
Posted: 2 years ago
eoalannn
4 posts
Joined October 2016
eoalannn
sou um demonio
Snakelancer
1 post
Joined May 2016
Snakelancer
Why do you lose what looks like to be around a thousand points for hitting 100s and 50s now? For newbies, at least, that doesn't look promising at all, to me.
Whaleborne
23 posts
Joined January 2015
Whaleborne
Maybe make it so you can still get an S after like 1 or 2 misses? Like, every other game mode is just as forgiving :/ I have had this complaint from long time players before
dsavant
6 posts
Joined April 2013
dsavant
Is there a minimum required acc to even get pp? I got a 96.92% S on a 2.8 star map that I've never played before and didn't gain a single point...
Sandy Hoey
3,605 posts
Joined October 2015
Sandy Hoey
There is no minimum accuracy required. However, if the map is easier then your top plays, you may not receive as much or any significant amount of pp. In your case though, because of your rank, you probably didn't receive the pp because of your connection to Bancho
dsavant
6 posts
Joined April 2013
dsavant

Sandy Hoey wrote:

There is no minimum accuracy required. However, if the map is easier then your top plays, you may not receive as much or any significant amount of pp. In your case though, because of your rank, you probably didn't receive the pp because of your connection to Bancho
I've never had any issues with my connection to Bancho that I'm aware of :| am I just playing maps that are considered "too easy"? It seems like 1/2 the maps I've been playing (including ones recommended from Tillerino) I just don't get pp for at all, and if I do it's like, 5 pp tops...
Sandy Hoey
3,605 posts
Joined October 2015
Sandy Hoey
It could also be that you aren't donig as well as you think you are. Just because you have decent acc and an S doesn't mean that you didn't break your combo somewhere and didn't get the FC.
Pittigbaasje
osu! Alumni
227 posts
Joined December 2012
Pittigbaasje
It makes me sad to see people having a full list of top plays barely reaching over 1 minute in length. In most online games I know, when there is one thing that trumps every other form of play, they will nerf said method in a way. I would love to see something similar happen to osu!.

At the moment a lot of mappers know how to optimize their maps for maximum pp gains. This has both positive and negative effects. I personally believe we should take a closer look and define what a healthy meta should be. Before the optimisation of mapping, doubletime used to be somewhat healthy iirc. I noticed that nowadays, you will get looked down upon when you only have dubbeltime in your top plays.

Personally, my logic tells me that this meta can't be right. Hopefully we won't have to spam 1 minute maps in order to climb the rankings. (Sure, git gut may be a response for this. But climbing becomes really hard and demotivating if everybody around you only plays 1 minute maps for easy 500 pp plays). I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels this way though.
Fanboy
2 posts
Joined June 2014
Fanboy

Pittigbaasje wrote:

It makes me sad to see people having a full list of top plays barely reaching over 1 minute in length. In most online games I know, when there is one thing that trumps every other form of play, they will nerf said method in a way. I would love to see something similar happen to osu!.

At the moment a lot of mappers know how to optimize their maps for maximum pp gains. This has both positive and negative effects. I personally believe we should take a closer look and define what a healthy meta should be. Before the optimisation of mapping, doubletime used to be somewhat healthy iirc. I noticed that nowadays, you will get looked down upon when you only have dubbeltime in your top plays.

Personally, my logic tells me that this meta can't be right. Hopefully we won't have to spam 1 minute maps in order to climb the rankings. (Sure, git gut may be a response for this. But climbing becomes really hard and demotivating if everybody around you only plays 1 minute maps for easy 500 pp plays). I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels this way though.
To be fairly honest usually those 1 minute high pp play maps are usually played with mods and at least to me are super difficult to get high accuracy on
Pittigbaasje
osu! Alumni
227 posts
Joined December 2012
Pittigbaasje

Fanboy wrote:

Pittigbaasje wrote:

It makes me sad to see people having a full list of top plays barely reaching over 1 minute in length. In most online games I know, when there is one thing that trumps every other form of play, they will nerf said method in a way. I would love to see something similar happen to osu!.

At the moment a lot of mappers know how to optimize their maps for maximum pp gains. This has both positive and negative effects. I personally believe we should take a closer look and define what a healthy meta should be. Before the optimisation of mapping, doubletime used to be somewhat healthy iirc. I noticed that nowadays, you will get looked down upon when you only have dubbeltime in your top plays.

Personally, my logic tells me that this meta can't be right. Hopefully we won't have to spam 1 minute maps in order to climb the rankings. (Sure, git gut may be a response for this. But climbing becomes really hard and demotivating if everybody around you only plays 1 minute maps for easy 500 pp plays). I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels this way though.
To be fairly honest usually those 1 minute high pp play maps are usually played with mods and at least to me are super difficult to get high accuracy on
I want to say that I do not mean to disrespect whatsoever.
From my experience, there seemed to be a huge variety of maps you can efficiently gain ranks from at the lower amounts of total performance points. However once you reach those borders of difficulty (ar10+, od10) alternatives are becoming more and more scarce. Furthermore, by no means did I say all 1 minute maps are easy, nor irrelevant. I'm sure people enjoy actually listening the music in there. (so do I, from time to time)

What bothers me is that they are picked deliberately to be mapped in a certain way so they yield the maximum amount they can give. And with the way pp is calculated at the moment, they are just too easy for the amount of performance points they give.

Performance points are the only true in game reward you get for playing the game. Players of any game will always try to optimise the way they get their rewards. Mappers feed the community with what they want. So neither are to blame. I feel like the only thing that can restore balance is to adjust the pp calculations.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
It's very hard or impossible to balance the pp system to the point where there is no imbalanced mapping styles. The best solution would be to get rid of it altogether.
Pittigbaasje
osu! Alumni
227 posts
Joined December 2012
Pittigbaasje

B1rd wrote:

It's very hard or impossible to balance the pp system to the point where there is no imbalanced mapping styles. The best solution would be to get rid of it altogether.
I agree that it is very hard. Impossible, perhaps. However, I don't think that it has to be perfect in order for it to be fun and inviting to climb. Players will find the best way again eventually, and when that time comes, a small tweak can yet again solve the new problem with ease. Leaving the formula almost unchanged for years just doesn't seem right to me.
my name is hi
119 posts
Joined August 2014
my name is hi
Sometimes I get better scores and lose PP... Otherwise everything's fine!
sayonara_sekai
376 posts
Joined November 2010
sayonara_sekai
yeah i came back from a long break and noticed that theres mappers who straight up make metronome ar9.1-9.5 jump maps with high OD. its actually really gross some of these maps even get ranked, i think theres some serious circlejerk going on in this games mapping community and severely damaging this kind of mapping would do wonders for the game in the long run
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7954422

Looks about right - perfect pp formula, perfect pp system, everything is in place

:thinking:
Caradine
Caradine

[Taiga] wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7954422

Looks about right - perfect pp formula, perfect pp system, everything is in place

:thinking:
honestly idk about dt but that map is harder than many many other 4.5 star maps for me.
wokalek
139 posts
Joined September 2015
wokalek
Hello... Where I can know about pp formula for definite map? If it possible at all.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Short rant... yet again... how pp formula is complete horseshit garbage:




All 3 maps are over 5 min long. Marathon size maps.

Now sit tight:




"Los" - around 1:40, NOT EVEN 5*
haitai - 40 seconds

OD is same for all of them.

Wish incoming osu!lazer brings complete rework of this bullshit.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
Los is higher OD, higher accuracy and with HD so it gives more pp. haitai is higher star rating but significantly shorter so it gives less pp.
What is the problem?
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Weighting of map length = 30s or 5 min... doesn't matter for formula.
Sliders are non-existent for pp formula - main fucking issue.

Pretty much everything with pp formula.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1226973 - 99,40% acc FC with HD gives 374pp (amount of players able to pull this - can count on 2 hands)
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/591987 - 100% HDDT gives 363pp (amount of players able to pull this - A LOT)

Please, if someone tell me that 20s harumachi HDDT is harder than 5min USAO... must visit mental doctor asap.
Last edited by -Makishima S- , edited 1 time in total.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
Length is absolutely involved in pp values of a map, just not as much as you seem to want it.
Sliders are existent in pp formula. It looks at the shortest possible path you can take. The problem is that 1: it doesnt take into account that you have to follow the sliderball and 2: a jump will always be faster than a slider.

Map length is a difficult subject because how are you going to accurately use it in pp calculation? Should a map that's twice as long give twice as much pp? Then you will soon end up with superinflated pp ratings just because that 4* map is 20 minutes. Should a map that's similar star rating but longer always be worth more pp, even if the od is lower? When length weighting was first added people complained that it was too strong so it got nerfed, now you think it's not strong enough. It's not just something where you change 1 number and be done with it.

Also you could work on your attitude.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Map length is just weighted too little in comparison to how aim and speed values are weighted. Consistency is... lets be honest, one of harder skills to maintain because human nature of nerves and stress has his role in it. How many people out of all players in rank range from 50 to 10k are able to consistently play with high accuracy and FC in 10-20 tires marathon size maps and how many are able to do this to 1 min maps. While rank going up, more people starting to be able to play longer maps but it is still an issue if you gained your ranks by playing exclusively TV-Size maps.

Map length should have bigger impact for pp just because it is way easier to pull out 200pp score from daidai dt spamming it over and over than from for example this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/53554?m=0 - OD9 7 min vs OD 9.7 2 min map.

Here is one thing:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/53554?m=0 - 99% = ~220pp
daidai genome DT only 93% acc fc = ~223pp

Now, difficulty wise - pulling 99% on Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End is wayyy harder than pulling 93% fc on daidai genome.

Sorry for my attitude, issues with pp formula still driving me out, even that I don't play actively anymore due this particular issue.
Blueness
62 posts
Joined January 2011
Blueness
so far so good until the PerformancePlus launched.

Here is an example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/38235 I have 94.46% on DTFC and got 262pp, but the same score there are more than 310pp in the PP+

Now I'm in meditation, why the beatmap contains TONS of streams still gives less pp than a many stupid jumps like daidai gonome?
I'm really really care about the streams take up how many percentage weight in the pp system, to fc a beatmap with many high speed streams is not easy for most people, but many people can jump easily even with the touchscreen.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Because distance spacing on streams is short and for pp formula "it is worth nothing".
Yet, getting good acc on stream heavy map like River styx is super hard in comparison to 1-3x 100 daidai HDDT.

99% acc fc river styx gives same pp as HDDT 1 x 100 on daidai.

Amount of people able to pull out 99% acc fc on river styx - not many...
1 x 100 HDDT daidai - well... every single 4-digit pp farmer.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
amax
110 posts
Joined June 2015
amax
I know it was changed before ppv2 was implemented but wouldn't it be good to have a percentage of the pp gained come from the actual rank achieved on leader board of a map? I see a couple of problems that my young brain can't find solutions for, like people constantly refreshing the new ranked maps page. I thought that maybe some sort of proportion could be set for players played and time the map has been out or something but then that would make people wait for everyone else to play it. If someone does find a solution to solve this issue, would this idea still be nice?
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Tilt on English wrote:

I know it was changed before ppv2 was implemented but wouldn't it be good to have a percentage of the pp gained come from the actual rank achieved on leader board of a map? I see a couple of problems that my young brain can't find solutions for, like people constantly refreshing the new ranked maps page. I thought that maybe some sort of proportion could be set for players played and time the map has been out or something but then that would make people wait for everyone else to play it. If someone does find a solution to solve this issue, would this idea still be nice?
This is how ppv1 worked and it was shit.
Kiciuk
108 posts
Joined October 2013
Kiciuk
ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
Hydrano
36 posts
Joined September 2011
Hydrano
I played this game a lot in the past years and stopped playing it actively about a year ago. I found my skill cap I guess. The game gives no more reward for my plays. In the 4 digit ranks it's not enough to fc 5.4* maps with under 99.5% to get any pp.
Also the fact that you must full combo the maps AND get very high accuracy makes it even more unattractive in higher ranks. You can't play this game casual (1 hour max. per day) if you want some kind of positive feedback for playing it.
I just want this 'reward feeling' back when passing maps even with like 92% on long streaming maps etc. Or if I combo break just once in the middle of a map. Absolute no reward even with 99.90%. But all I get is a -1 rank after every map tho.

I just wanted to share my thoughts about this never ending topic even though I have no idea how to make it better or more rewarding. But I think many people get stuck and stop playing actively cause these reasons.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Hydrano wrote:

I played this game a lot in the past years and stopped playing it actively about a year ago. I found my skill cap I guess. The game gives no more reward for my plays. In the 4 digit ranks it's not enough to fc 5.4* maps with under 99.5% to get any pp.
Also the fact that you must full combo the maps AND get very high accuracy makes it even more unattractive in higher ranks. You can't play this game casual (1 hour max. per day) if you want some kind of positive feedback for playing it.
I just want this 'reward feeling' back when passing maps even with like 92% on long streaming maps etc. Or if I combo break just once in the middle of a map. Absolute no reward even with 99.90%. But all I get is a -1 rank after every map tho.

I just wanted to share my thoughts about this never ending topic even though I have no idea how to make it better or more rewarding. But I think many people get stuck and stop playing actively cause these reasons.
If you're not improving you shouldn't be ranking up over players who are.
E m i
E m i

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
tell that to SyeruP who SSes all stream maps below 200bpm with HDHR
tell that to Epiphany who gets 50 ur on everything
tell that to My Aim Trash who gets 60 ur on hardcore bursty 270~285bpm maps
tell that to KeigoClear who seemingly never gets 100s on 180-240bpm streams
tell that to XII who gets 80 ur on everything 290-320bpm doesn't matter how streamy it is.
tell that to all the people who had to get 70 ur on long ass OD7 marathons to SS them, for 2 more pp than some 100 ur 2x100 score.
tell that to fuckin Cookiezi who ssed this: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/102999?m=0
with 59 ur (od10.3 ss tier) just to receive some retarded 300 pp range score.

Overall, you began to imply that acc is overrated and I bet 310bpm stream maps and 420bpm alt maps are overrated too because they're DT
Barusamikosu
1,100 posts
Joined July 2014
Barusamikosu

Momiji wrote:

tell that to SyeruP who SSes all stream maps below 200bpm with HDHR
tell that to Epiphany who gets 50 ur on everything
tell that to My Aim Trash who gets 60 ur on hardcore bursty 270~285bpm maps
tell that to KeigoClear who seemingly never gets 100s on 180-240bpm streams
tell that to XII who gets 80 ur on everything 290-320bpm doesn't matter how streamy it is.
tell that to all the people who had to get 70 ur on long ass OD7 marathons to SS them, for 2 more pp than some 100 ur 2x100 score.
tell that to fuckin Cookiezi who ssed this: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/102999?m=0
with 59 ur (od10.3 ss tier) just to receive some retarded 300 pp range score.

Overall, you began to imply that acc is overrated and I bet 310bpm stream maps and 420bpm alt maps are overrated too because they're DT
Underrated post
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
^
One of reasons why I don't admit of being a polish citizen

Acc should always have highest value in pp formula, right after it combo.
E m i
E m i

[Taiga] wrote:

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
^
One of reasons why I don't admit of being a polish citizen

Acc should always have highest value in pp formula, right after it combo.
Why not make miss count stronger? Missing 4 times as much (8 miss vs 2 miss) will eat like 10% of the pp, while halving your combo will eat 50% of the aim pp.
Actually I don't mind combo being the most important, but how many times more important than miss count should it be? Twice as important, 4 times as important? I think twice as important would be ok but what the game does currently is not even funny.

Extra:
1. Misses subtract a percentage of the total pp. Missing 5% of circles in a 200 combo map (10 misses) will result in a reduction significantly lesser than missing 2% of circles in a 5000 combo map for example. One more mechanism of making short maps overrated

2. Combo doesn't consider the difficulty of the map over time, spike placement is a mechanism for making maps overrated -.-
Omnipotence -
7 posts
Joined June 2016
Omnipotence -

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
Agreed :o
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
My main complaint is the huge amount of pp given at higher accuracy at high OD even if the map is really short *cof cof OKDAD or Elmo and the Monster Coockie eater*

Instead of basing almost everything accuracy pp at OD, instead focus at giving larger pp rewards from longer maps which aren't that high OD at all. Retrying on shorter maps still getting a lucky try with higher accuracy gives people pp which they don't deserve at all because of no constancy.

While we see OD7.5 maps which are x1700 combo that gives less from accuracy scaling than silly OD+9.75 (OD8 or higher +DT) maps of under x300 combo which is kinda absurd. Accuracy at higher OD needs to be LESS EXPONENTIAL mostly because pp is not a lineal system and there is the huge mistake of making accuracy an exponential variable. While I complain too about that 97-98% HR values are extremely low but that at +99% they start becoming so overrated.

Maybe you don't know, but in some DT/HR maps with OD close to 10 and at least x850 combo length if there are the right amount of hit circles, the diference between a 95% and 100% acc is over 100 pp !! which the difference between 99% and 100% is almost the half than in 95% to 100% !!. The problem actually is by under-rewarding accuracy below 98% at higher OD but kinda over-rewarding high accuracy at that OD.

And the problem is even bigger the lower stars a map has. As I said, pp rewards doesn't work lineally and that's the problem of actual pp accuracy values. For some people a 98% acc 200 pp values +0.01 pp but 275 pp 99.50% is like +40 or even +60 pp (which CAN happen in the cases of x850 maps with 4.8 - 5.3 stars with OD between OD9 and OD10)

Apart, that I'm completely agree with that some stuff done with lower acc but still FC are satisfactory but not so well rewarded in pp.
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