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osu!catch ScoreV2 Discussion

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PakaChan
Holy shit the last guy is just too much.
So many people that have no idea what they're talking about...
RAMPAGE88
Yeah too much but it's funny.
Also, HR doesn't change location so much in CtB maps tbh, It affects convert maps more and most of the time old converts (old mapping)
I didn't say that HR is easy but keep in mind that HR sometimes also changes pixel jump to hyper and make some jumps (pattern) easier to catch.
So sometimes it helps in some patterns but never for DT (I think)
Well It's just an opinion.
iiyo

2zz wrote:

FL - 1.12
HR - 1.12
DT - 1.12
HD - 1.04

i hope ur joking
rostld
how about everything 1.1
Secre

Jimmy Rustler wrote:

how about everything 1.1
no 1.0
2zz
Here was very quiet. I decided to slightly shake it lol
xi-False
No-mod should give +0.224 this may sound crazy but,
my elaborate decision making on these numbers is explained down below in the box
I hope everyone can keep an opened mind and accept these changes for what they should be.

uaaaaaaa!

cause why not.....
Zak
Can you not
Smudge
delete scorev2
iiyo

Smudge wrote:

delete scorev2
smudgeee roooooooooooocksss dude
Colin
i actually like score v2 :d
o x
Since the scorev2 mod was implemented I guess I'll put my input into this thread.

I like how droplets are 10% each instead of having it 10pts each. HR has always been higher than DT in terms of multiplier but I think that DT should be higher than HR or at least not have HR giving so much of a multiplier, I think the most impressive plays should be first on the leaderboards and a lot of people think that DT should be higher than HR and I have to agree. A DT score is a lot more impressive than a HR score IMO. People can say that HR is more impressive on higher CS maps, but those are really rare as it is, the base CS is 4 which is seen so common that HR plays are almost expected on them (I'm not talking about ET maps don't attack me.)
Take Tsuki ni Murakumo Hana ni Kaze (PV ver.) for example, Motion is sitting with the only HDDT play ever and it is far more impressive than the HDHR plays that are set on the map, I don't see why the play is placed so far down when it is a better play.

The one concern I have about the bananas is at what point do droplets become more valuable than bananas? As it stands a good spinner is recognised as the better score on lower level maps as well as shorter maps. Also right now it seems that a good spinner is more impressive than a good acc in the community standards, I am just wondering because I like having spinners outweigh droplets.

smoogipooo wrote:

[*] The percentage worth of tiny slider ticks is scaled by the ratio of tiny ticks to all other objects in the map.
Okay what? so the percentage worth of slider droplets is scaled by the ratio of slider ticks? Or the number of droplets?

Can't tell which one you mean since you keep saying tiny slider ticks and tiny ticks...
Zak
With the HR/DT debate you also have to take note that on lower end maps (almost all maps at AR8.5 and below) DT is the easier choice, which is the reason why it was like that long ago, it's a unique thing that only happens here and it's not as simple as just flipping the multipliers since then you have messed up leaderboards on everything that isn't hard.
o x
I don't see that as a bad thing right now. There will always be an easier mod than the other, currently the maps I see mostly are AR 9+ which with DT can make it harder than HR, but I don't think the reason DT is hard is because of the AR so I don't like comparing it like that.
One of the things that make DT difficult is increasing the BPM, and with DT you have to be very precise with your movements especially when you are given half the time to complete complex patterns, where HR seems to be quite a lot more lenient with the movements. It seems like the typical maps that are getting ranked right now are CS:4 AR:9 BPM:170~
With HR it would only affect AR which would stick it ar AR10 and CS would be 5.2 I would find this a lot easier to pass than a DT map that makes the AR10.3~ and 255bpm.

Of course ctb is completely subjective and people that are really good at fast movements will find DT easier but find high CS harder and be bad at HR.

Logically the best plays should in turn be the top play on your profile correct? Excluding EZ mod. Thinking like this means DT should be at the top of the leaderboards right? I think it's a bit off that DT can be seen as the top play ever but not even make it into the top 50 on the map because HDHR scores give more score. I just think that it should be the opposite is all.
I'm not saying to switch HR and DT multipliers completely I just think DT should be higher than HR.
PakaChan
please keep this crap in your shitty tournament and never touch the actual score system with it
Zak
You would still need a way to accurately show what is/isn't easier per map and while it is a shame that DT isn't higher on Rain+ maps the plays are certainly not overlooked, and if you did flip them there would be more leaderboards that are messed up than there are ones that are fixed, in Standard and Taiko this isn't a discussion at all since DT is always harder than HR unless it's maybe some special gimmick map but that doesn't really count where as here a majority of maps are objectively harder to do with HR as opposed to DT due to the sheer amount of lower end maps. So unless some adjustment could be made that switches the multiplier on higher end maps that would 100% be harder with DT (only high up maps to avoid middle ground maps that would spark a debate about which is harder) I would much rather keep our current multipliers.

Also if Scorev2 ever does become the standard then we would need to adjust current multipliers anyway but I don't think there will ever be enough support from the community for it to change over, I like it for tournaments but I'd also really hate to see it replace our current scoring system.
o x
I don't know how to fix the DT HR problem, even if you make it multiply by BPM it would still make easier maps messed up. If there's a way that lower end maps wouldn't be affected by this than I would love that but I don't really have any suggestions, I don't think they can do it by star rating either. Maybe AR? But even then it might be easy. I don't mind the multipliers as they are now but I would just like to see DT higher but I know it'll cause quite a bit of controversy with the lower end maps so maybe it's best just sticking with what we have.

Even if we don't like score v2 I'm sure it will still get pushed through, I don't think they will change much seeing as there aren't very many posts here at all and it's been 5 months. Half the posts are people saying random stuff and not contributing to the topic at all. CTB doesn't have many people that are willing to put out their opinions on stuff like this, most just complain on social media about the changes but never contribute to changing it at all. That's the sad truth about CTB right now.
Another thing is if you scroll through the posts on this page you will notice that the majority think DT should be scored higher, and that's pretty much the only thing people have been saying in this thread, so they will assume it's the only thing we don't like and that we like everything else. I like how they are weighting droplets higher because especially on shorter maps you will see people purposely dodging droplets and still getting a top 10 score because of the spin they accomplish.
He Ang CTB

Zak wrote:

So unless some adjustment could be made that switches the multiplier on higher end maps that would 100% be harder with DT (only high up maps to avoid middle ground maps that would spark a debate about which is harder) I would much rather keep our current multipliers.
^ Sums up very well.

Also the main reason why players wanted a new system is so that players can overwrite HDHR scores with DT, but it has already been made possible by letting players submit more than 1 record despite of score (look at Jimmy Rustler's profile on Big Black EZ FL).
o x

He Ang Erika wrote:

Also the main reason why players wanted a new system is so that players can overwrite HDHR scores with DT, but it has already been made possible by letting players submit more than 1 record despite of score (look at Jimmy Rustler's profile on Big Black EZ FL).
I am more talking about leaderboards and the way things are scored not submitting multiple scores.
Zak
Yeah and you can either have 5% of the leaderboards broken as they are now or flip things and have 95% of them being broken.
mummie
>90% of the score comes from combo, the <10% comes from tiny slider ticks.
does this mean that the droplets worth more in a short map over the score of a higher map ?
and what is the flat droplet score where it starts @ still the same as now or is there any change as you stated with the bananas its a big increase of point from 100 to 350
lineqtxz
why not use scorev1 for cwc?(?)
Zak
Because ScoreV2 is more interesting
He Ang CTB

lineqtxz wrote:

why not use scorev1 for cwc?(?)

Zak wrote:

Because ScoreV2 is more interesting
To prevent the two of you from solo carrying the team :D
CelegaS
scoreV2 from cwc 2016 was just scoreV1 with scalled score, different weight of bananas and droplets.
DeletedUser_1417202
hmm insane~extra level DT>HR
hard level HR>DT.. confused
Crystallize
Could you add score v2 to fallback aswell. CWC is near and it might influence players' performance due to lack of good computer.
F D Flourite
I cannot see the current CTB ScoreV2 formula, is there any reference or link?

Just watching CWC right now. In the "first" match HK vs JP group stage match, the last game was a platter HR. Alice Cartelet (a HK player) had missed for 2 times at different timing spots, which means that he just cut the full combo 396 into 3 pieces. He/she only got 166 for the highest combo during that game, but he still got 930k+ score (HR full score is around 1120k, I suppose). It sounds weird honestly.

Like, if someone misses in the middle of the music, he could only get about half of the full score in the past ScoreV2. It indeed sounds too tragic. But in the current version, the combo thing just seem to matter quite little, then what's emphasized now? I just don't really like the current ScoreV2 system tbh.

Hope to hear from the development group about the current scoring formula so that more players can get what's emphasized in the current ScoreV2 system.

EDIT: A new evidence of current ScoreV2 system:


Their scores got too little difference imo. :|
Besides, if you look at the performance between alienflybot and Galaxi, you will find something more weird.

Don't see how this system is gonna work, sorry.
Zak
Most players in the world cup were made aware of the changes made to ScoreV2 the day they were added, and honestly almost no one complained. This system makes misses much more forgiving but you have to admit still that every miss definitely hurts your score, though missing all at the same spot will certainly hurt a lot less. Most people don't like it just because the scores are still close to the max they can get, but honestly that's not a big issue since it's the same for everyone and the team that plays better will still win.
F D Flourite

Zak wrote:

but honestly that's not a big issue since it's the same for everyone and the team that plays better will still win.
It's hard to define which team "plays better" in the current ScoreV2. In the past systems points are differentiated highly so you can really tell it with a certain reason, regardless of how you like or hate that reason. But now the difference is just like "wut"?

You may look at the score screenshot that I posted, afb missed more and got fewer combo than Galaxi (the full combo is 1092, so undoubtedly 510cb is highly fewer than 815cb for sure), but he still got higher score. Imo it is just for no reason.

So the soul of this system is, spin to win and pray to the god for less point punishment? XD just kidding

Anyway, I've reported such an issue and hope that the development team can take this case into consideration.
Zak
Looking at the screenshot tells me that Mizzoking likely had his misses spread throughout the map, while afb probably missed all at once or in the same general section of the song, it's actually better having the scores be closer as it's not focusing purely on who gets the biggest combo and more so on who misses less, I played with ScoreV2 quite a bit last year and a decent amount so far after the changes, and I think it's much better this way. Also there is no way the staff will change the scoring formula now that the tournament has started unless some really bad flaw is found.
F D Flourite

Zak wrote:

Also there is no way the staff will change the scoring formula now that the tournament has started unless some really bad flaw is found.
That's mostly the thing I guess :P

Imo the most problem that this system causes is combo becomes highly irrelevant to the score, the same as a single miss in some maps. As a result, players have to find whether giving up some notes to catch bananas would be a better option for getting a higher score (and it's the truth in some maps), which I think is highly off the intention of this scoring system and the game itself.
CelegaS
Current scoreV2 is similar to mania's score, in 50 combo you reached like 99% value of a fruit.
Zak

F D Flourite wrote:

Zak wrote:

Also there is no way the staff will change the scoring formula now that the tournament has started unless some really bad flaw is found.
That's mostly the thing I guess :P

Imo the most problem that this system causes is combo becomes highly irrelevant to the score, the same as a single miss in some maps. As a result, players have to find whether giving up some notes to catch bananas would be a better option for getting a higher score (and it's the truth in some maps), which I think is highly off the intention of this scoring system and the game itself.
Uhm I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to get a higher score missing notes than with an SS because bananas only give 350 points each, where as every combo break that isn't at the very end or beginning of a map will likely hurt your score more than what the bananas can give you
Laharl
Kinda bothers me that spinners on spinner-heavy maps may be more worth than a 1.06x mod, but oh well.
Zak

Laharl wrote:

Kinda bothers me that spinners on spinner-heavy maps may be more worth than a 1.06x mod, but oh well.
I don't see how that will be an issue on ScoreV2
CelegaS
How fruit value are calculated:
We have a base value and a factor associated.
Factor is 1 for first fruit then log2(combo) for combo 1 to 200 and fixed after 200 combo. (second fruit has factor of log2(2))
Using log mean miss at 100 combo in 1000 combo map you will lose 33k points and miss after 200 combo only 6k more points lost.

For calculating base value we need to sum all factor of fruits (1+1+1.58+2+...) an then baseValue = 1000000/factorSum

All i said is only valid on circle-only map or map without droplet/tick because I tested only this configuration.
akmal2232232123
try to make it dependent on overall difficulty
*i mean for the pp system
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