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[Proposal] osu!standard ruleset draft (Specific)

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Kencho
952 posts
Joined August 2013
Kencho
Normal
When distance snap is used, try to keep it between 0.8x and 1.2x. Values too much higher or lower may make the difference between slider velocity and spacing uncomfortable.
I think the ds change to between 0.8x and 1.4x will be better because nowadays many normal diffs will use 1.2x sv + 1.4x ds to avoid overlap in 1/2 beat hitobjects.
Snowy Dream
2,195 posts
Joined September 2009
Snowy Dream
Insane:
Overall Difficulty should be between 7 and 9.
Can it be between 6(or at least 6.5) and 9?
Because some Light Insane diffs need OD 6 imo, also I think OD 9 maybe a bit high for an Insane diff.

And.. I think in an Insane diff, it should avoid consecutive jump with large distance spacing. Many mappers like map for pp now, but it should also be reserved for an Expert diff.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Snowy Dream wrote:

Insane:
Overall Difficulty should be between 7 and 9.
Can it be between 6(or at least 6.5) and 9?
Because some Light Insane diffs need OD 6 imo, also I think OD 9 maybe a bit high for an Insane diff.

And.. I think in an Insane diff, it should avoid consecutive jump with large distance spacing. Many mappers like map for pp now, but it should also be reserved for an Expert diff.

I don't think maps in the insane range ever need od below 7, it's often used in more difficult hards already aswell. OD9 is fine for higher insanes in the 5-5.25* range and sometimes it even works well below 5* (happy30's world's end for example). In the end it's an upper limit and a guideline anyway so you don't have to use it, nor are settings outside of the range forbidden.
raririn
1,002 posts
Joined October 2011
raririn
I think that in Easy/Normal diffs, a maximum DS*SV (or sth. like this) should be set depending on the BPM, besides limits on them respectively. Either DS or SV does not presents the difficulty.
SV=1.2, ds=1.2* is greatly different from SV=0.8, ds=0.8*.

Well this is only my personal opinion, and perhaps it's not accurate.

ok i've seen oko's post.


Spinner recovery time should be at least 4 beats.
I also have some questions on this. Maybe it's has been guideline for long, but I do not see it necessary to leave 4 beats. Surely in 180 BPM, 2 beats may be too fast for new players to handle. However, in some low BPM songs, 4 beats is really long. In these cases, if mappers want to put a spinner somewhere, it would make the rhythm of that part very loose and boring. At least, I think 2 beats is fine if the BPM is relatively low.




Also I agree with some of the ideas above.

I support Snowy Dream's idea of changing the minimum OD of Insane diffs to be 6/6.5.
There is Advanced between Normal and Hard, but it's usually still a gap between Hard/Insane when the hardest diff in the map is iconed as I. For the reason a Light Insane might be mapped, and in this case OD7 is kind of too high for it. If OD6 is considered too low, OD6.5/6.7 would also be fine.

As for the difficulty settings, I'd support on a looser rule. Depending on the songs, using a bit higher/lower OD/HP won't harm. Even songs with 180 BPM differs a lot.
Last edited by raririn , edited 1 time in total.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,911 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu
the draft is already at "assume 180 bpm" and effective sv is defined as
Effective Slider Velocity: Equals Base Slider Velocity of the difficulty multiplied with the current inherited point.
plus there being a guideline for avoiding cluttering stuff.

As for the rest:
If your song is drastically faster or slower, some variables might be different. Apply reasonable judgement in these cases.
Last edited by Okoratu , edited 2 times in total.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

Snowy Dream wrote:

Can it be between 6(or at least 6.5) and 9?
Because some Light Insane diffs need OD 6 imo, also I think OD 9 maybe a bit high for an Insane diff.
It is a guideline, that means giving a reason allows you to break it. "It's supposed to be light insane/other filler difficulty" will for sure allow you to use OD such as 6. It of course depends on the song, but you need to assume that this is what regular, average Insane should probably have.
Mekki
1,793 posts
Joined November 2014
Mekki
On Easy diff:

Okorin wrote:

  1. Avoid slider-only sections. Generally aiming and following a lot of sliders in a row can be tiring for low-level players. In such cases, circles should be used as rest moments.
Shouldn't it be avoid circle-only sections? I mean, usually, sliders are used to give rest moments to beginners. Though, if this were proposital, I'd recommend adding a guideline about circle-only sections too, which can be pretty difficult for a beginner.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,911 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu
Sliders don't give rest moments to players, they stress them more lol.

Imagine using a high DPI mouse and then increasing your mouse sensivity (which most do because they think they can't keep track otherwise) and then follow sliderbodies. circle only sections are less stressful because there are no slider paths that have to be aimed at. I think the bigger issue are slider-only sections atm though due to how the meta lowdiffs look.

nonetheless we will bring circle-only sections up again in regard to this guideline
-Napoleon-
307 posts
Joined January 2011
-Napoleon-

Okorin wrote:

Sliders don't give rest moments to players, they stress them more lol.

Imagine using a high DPI mouse and then increasing your mouse sensivity (which most do because they think they can't keep track otherwise) and then follow sliderbodies. circle only sections are less stressful because there are no slider paths that have to be aimed at. I think the bigger issue are slider-only sections atm though due to how the meta lowdiffs look.

nonetheless we will bring circle-only sections up again in regard to this guideline
According to you, pressing a button rhythmically for four beats while moving the cursor and paying attention to the upcoming notes is way less complex than pressing and holding a button for four beats and moving the cursor along the slider (which is the same as moving it to hit the next note) nd not having to worry about circles for two beats.

Get what MkGuh wanted to tell you?
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
The problem is that you don't find circle-only sections anymore, at all. You find slider-only sections pretty often, because people think it's easier, but in reality it's just unbalanced rhythm in most cases. You also find a lot of modders telling you 'this is too hard for an Easy diff' when you place 5 circles in a row, which is not the case. So it makes a lot more sense like it is now imo :b

And with that we'll take this to revision
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
reopening time

Changelog:

  1. Easy:
    1. wording changed for Avoid slider-only sections. Aiming and following a lot of sliders in a row can be tiring for low-level players.
    2. wording changed for When distance snap is used, try to keep it between 0.8x and 1.2x.
    3. Avoid polarity issues regarding red and white ticks, or use a slider after an irregular gap. moved and reworded for the osu!standard general draft
    4. slider velocity guideline removed
    5. circle size guideline removed
  1. Normal:
    1. values and wording changed for When distance snap is used, try to keep it between 0.8x and 1.3x.
    2. Avoid polarity issues regarding red and white ticks, or use a slider after an irregular gap. moved and reworded for the osu!standard general draft
    3. slider velocity guideline removed
    4. circle size guideline removed
  1. Hard:
    1. slider velocity guideline removed
    2. circle size guideline removed
Short answers to other concerns on the thread:

  1. Spaghetti's concern about variable spacing on easy/normal difficulties:
    -> testing with new players showed that slight variations aren't an issue. of course illogical spacing is, but that doesn't mean anything variable should be disallowed
  2. Nozhomi's concern about AR on easy
    -> as oko said on the thread earlier, "all limits are upper limits on these or else you'll have your diff either inappropriate for an easy or labled a normal." we determined 5 would be an okay upper limit, since anything lower would possibly be too restrictive
  3. Nozhomi's concern about distance snap on easy/normal difficulties:
    -> the draft begins with "Rhythm related guidelines apply to approximately 180 BPM maps." you talked about different BPMs causing problems, but the intro thing kind of resolves that
  4. B1rd's concern about circle size on normal/hard difficulties:
    -> should be resolved now
  5. viptwo's concern about cross screen jumps in expert difficulties:
    -> we decided that they can be used effectively enough in many situations, so a guideline preventing them would be broken far too often
  6. Frostings's concern about easy/normal guidelines
    -> as said on the thread earlier, we tested elements with new players
  7. Frostings's concern about AR recommendations
    -> approach rate being too high on easier difficulties means players will focus more on reacting to objects rather than interpreting rhythm, which we think goes against the point of low difficulties
  8. Frostings's concern about SV recommendations
    -> resolved
  9. Xinely's concern about CS recommendations
    -> resolved
  10. Giralda's concern about kicksliders
    -> "we avoided using kickslider anywhere on the draft because people seem to be in utter confusion what the term means ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"
  11. Giralda's concern about spelling
    -> i don't speak english
  12. Kencho's concern about distance snap on easy/normal difficulties
    -> should be resolved
  13. Snowy Dream's concern about OD on insane difficulties
    -> we believe that if an insane is basic enough to justify OD lower than 7, it would be able to break this guideline. OD less than 7 on most generic insanes though wouldn't be as okay
  14. MkGuh's concern about slider-only sections on easy difficulties
    -> as oko/desp already explained, sliders are actually difficult for scrubs and circle-only-sections aren't really common in current mapping
Make sure to read the entire draft again, the opening post is up to date now! The revision will be up to discussion for two weeks again and close on the 3rd December 0:00 UTC+0
BounceBabe
1,626 posts
Joined October 2010
BounceBabe
AR 5 or less for Easy and 4-6 for Normal is a bit contradicting. 4 or less is more appropriate for Easy.

About the spinner recovery for Easy Normal and Hard: 4 beats on a 90 BPM song is too much. 4 beats on a 190 BPM song is too little. This goes for Easy and Normal. 1 or 1/2 beat is fine for Hard. It depends on the song as well and this should be taken into account. Sometimes a spinner ending too early will make the mapping sound off too. In general, more freedom to this rule could be achieved if bending this rule was allowed. Allowing mappers to continue mapping from the center of the screen will make reaching the upcoming elements easier and thus less recovery will be needed. Of course there will have to be a decent amount of recovery either way. Centered elements will also be easier to notice than elements near the edge of the playfield area. Furthermore, elements that shortly before a spinner ends appear, should provide enough recovery time too.

"Avoid cross screen jumps and spaced streams. These are mapping techniques primarily reserved for Expert level difficulties" Should be treated very strictly. I've seen a few Insanes that contain streams with jumps in them but the rest of the map is difficulty appropriately spaced or contains easier and more consistent difficulty level characteristics. In other words, the stream-jumps do not fit with the rest of the mapping. Tbh, stream jumps and spaced streams should be considered as appropriate mapping characteristic for Extra but not Insane.

Oh and I call them clicksliders and not kicksliders. I find clicksliders more appropriate since they are played as clickable element like single circles as the sliderend is within range of the sliderstart and therefore not dragged / the Slider Circle covers sliderstart and end. Mind adding that?
Last edited by BounceBabe , edited 1 time in total.
Shiranai
2,186 posts
Joined August 2012
Shiranai

BounceBabe wrote:

AR 5 or less for Easy and 4-6 for Normal is a bit contradicting. 4 or less is more appropriate for Easy.
I'm seconding that, maybe that should be reword or something into AR 4 or less for Easy and AR 4-6 for Normal

I also have another question, guidelines on Easy:
  1. Avoid spacing which causes consecutive 1/1 rhythms to overlap. If too many consecutive objects overlap, it can be confusing for low-level players.
Do we need that guideline? I think that kinda redundant. Considering what's written on the rules about overlapping, I think the rules itself already cover that point as well, also by using a correct distance snap value (like written on guideline around 0.8x~1.2x), I think most overlap could be avoided as well in any cases
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet
@BounceBabe

Obviously AR5 Easy and AR4 Normal in the same set won't be ranked, the guidelines are just ranges. AR5 Easy might be needed for some spreads (like high bpm songs), and AR4 Normal might be needed for other spreads (like low bpm songs).

Regarding spinner recovery: "Rhythm related guidelines apply to approximately 180 BPM maps. If your song is drastically faster or slower, some variables might be different. Apply reasonable judgment in these cases."

Especially at low bpms, all Expert-style techniques you talk about can be introduced into an Insane difficulty in a way that makes sense. Doubletime Insanes have used spaced streams and fullscreen jumps forever, and streamjumps appear in a lot of simple ways, like circles-into-slider to emphasize a downbeat, or really easy circular motions, etc. Basically all Insane/Expert techniques can be handled on a case-by-case basis for what is or isn't appropriately difficult.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

Mako Sakata wrote:

I also have another question, guidelines on Easy:
  1. Avoid spacing which causes consecutive 1/1 rhythms to overlap. If too many consecutive objects overlap, it can be confusing for low-level players.
Do we need that guideline? I think that kinda redundant. Considering what's written on the rules about overlapping, I think the rules itself already cover that point as well, also by using a correct distance snap value (like written on guideline around 0.8x~1.2x), I think most overlap could be avoided as well in any cases
i think it seems redundant because, according to other council people, stuff like this would classify as "slight overlaps" (which are an exception to the overlap rule thing). it's pretty hard to interpret it that way though, so we may do something about wording
AngelKirby
21 posts
Joined May 2016
AngelKirby
I think that the CS guidelines and AR are a bit too limited for 3* and 4*, because i have played very fun 3* maps with AR 8 and CS 5, and 4*s with AR 10. just saying.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
closed for revision!!
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
open again, this time without a fancy formatting post

for BounceBabe's concerns, the ubkrc came to essentially the same conclusions UndeadCapulet explained here: p/5642491
for OCDkibry's concern, there's no real restrictions related to star rating, so we weren't sure what you were trying to explain
for Mako Sakata's concern, we combined the rule and guideline on easy and normal as suggested. this is the result:
easy: Avoid overlapping circles, slider heads, and slider tails. These can be confusing for new players. 1/1 overlaps due to distance snapping should be avoided with higher spacing or slider velocity.

normal: Avoid overlapping circles, slider heads, and slider tails. These can be confusing for new players. 1/2 overlaps due to distance snapping are an exception.

this draft is up for community discussion until the 23rd December 0:00 UTC+0 and will enter revision afterwards, hopefully for the last time if there's not much to adjust
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

Okorin wrote:

since apparently nothing else seems to require changing, I'll go ahead and bubble this for the time being.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
As of today, this set of rules counts as amended and can be found in its valid form at https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Standard_Ranking_Criteria. As of the big amount of changes, only beatmaps submitted past this amendment are going under this new set of rules. Every beatmap submitted prior this amendment will get treated and handled under the previous set of rules.

This legacy regulation expires in 6 months from today on. Everything that is not bubbled within the next 6 months will also be treated under the new ruleset then.

Pay attention to the altered wording regarding guidelines. Guidelines now make you have to follow them, unless you put the effort to explain your reasons for violating them exhaustively and whether or not you can showcase that *not violating them* would harm the quality of your beatmap more than *violating them*. (e.g. if your map would be as good with the violation as without the violation, you still have to comply to the guideline you violated and make amendments accordingly)
zigizigiefe
952 posts
Joined March 2013
zigizigiefe
Gratz for qualify.....oops,wrong place
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