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Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Topic Starter
smoogipoo

babysnakes wrote:

About the HR:
Well spotted, thanks. A patch for it is currently being reviewed.
BabySnakes
By the way, the health bar flashes full for a couple of times until the map actually starts.
Yuzeyun
i like how apparently hardware issues aren't a problem for finishers

just throwing that here
BabySnakes
Even though the new finishers might impact those with hardware issues, you're doing it properly for tournament play... But achieving the complete opposite on normal plays.
Yuzeyun
so i played around with hr scorev2 on a 2002 note map (all circles, has big notes) and i lost points upon getting 100s and misses

is this intended behaviour
Nwolf
yes
Yuzeyun
at least it has the merit of being a very concise answer LOL

edit:

smoogipooo wrote:

Finisher second key hits now award between 3 and 10 times (linear scale) the amount of points of a normal hit as bonus points, dependent on the number of finishers in the beatmap. In this way a beatmap with less than or equal to 30 finishers will award 10 times the amount of points, and a beatmap with 120 or more finishers will award 3 times the amount of points.
bolded the one thing that confuses me

map has 114 finishers, around 900 combo i get ~500 score for a normal note and ~860 for a big note. assuming 3x (we're close to 120 after all), we're at ~360, which is 120 per note. does that mean the note value is originally 120?

also i made a joke map with only one D to test and had 3 million score somehow, which is weird for a map with much less than 30 finishers. should it be 10 million in this case?
xEchoAlertx
I'm not at all a fan of the reduced scroll speed for HR. Being able to play 260+ bpm, as HR currently is, is immensely satisfying and takes a great deal of practice to master. As I've been playing with scorev2, 280bpm is a total joke to read. Most of the difficulty of the mod -- and, to my mind, all of its charm and fun -- comes from the significantly increased scroll speed. I can understand if a change were implemented that would make higher bpms more readable (say, tapering off scroll speed as bpm increased) but the scroll speed on lower bpm stuff is, to my eyes, slow enough as to be unreadable. That isn't Hard Rock. I have absolutely no interest in seeing any change in the mod, and the only concession I'd be willing to make would be the parenthetical one above. Don't turn HR into "nomod with extra OD."

Edit: Hmm, seems that this is being addressed! Thank you!
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Thanks all for your comments on HR. This was a bug and has now been fixed on Beta/Cutting Edge.
Loctav
The cap should be 1 million in any case. I think something in the calculation is not working as intended, especially since the finisher changes.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Fixed!
Luna
Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but there is an issue with HDHR on widescreen.
I love the fact that HDHR is playable now, but right now it's way harder on widescreen because it still uses the accelerated/widescreen-adjusted HR scroll speed while also cutting off part of the track for HD. This makes the effective scroll speed way higher than the same mod combination on 4:3
If HDHR cuts the track to 4:3, it also needs to adjust the scroll speed back down to 4:3 HR levels.
karterfreak
Seconding the above post.
k3v227
I also agree with Luna. I noticed this right away put couldn't put it into words lol. For example: trying to read, not even play, but read Renatus HDHRDT on 16:9 is absolutely impossible :cry:
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Fixed.
yuki_momoiro722
Definitely YES For me :)

But anyways, there's no Score V2 .png skinning. Where is it imo?
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Should be there. Have you tried selection-mod-scorev2.png?
CaptainAhab_old

SteveOsu420 wrote:

Definitely YES For me :)

But anyways, there's no Score V2 .png skinning. Where is it imo?
Forgive my ignorance, but what is meant by this?
darkmiz

CaptainAhab wrote:

SteveOsu420 wrote:

Definitely YES For me :)

But anyways, there's no Score V2 .png skinning. Where is it imo?
Forgive my ignorance, but what is meant by this?
the mod icon, like selection-mod-nofail.png for nofail
Syphist
I still have some problems with the current system, as they do not reflect how taiko is supposed to play. I'll list them below.

  1. GOOD notes counting for 1/3 instead of 1/2 - it's far less punishing and a good middle ground to have it at 1/2, it's one of the reasons I prefer Taiko over STD, it puts way less pressure on perfection
  2. Some drum roll ticks being required and drum rolls counting towards combo - what, why? They were optional in the original game, and gimmick maps will suffer. This is just nonsensical no matter how I try to look at it
  3. Same as above but with spinners - this is also dumb. Why count extra points to the overall accuracy and combo? It takes away from the original game
All in all it feels like you are trying to make taiko play like the other modes, and it honestly isn't supposed to play like them.


Here is what I do like about the system though.

  1. Accuracy based score - OG Taiko scoring is nice, acc scoring sounds better. I'd like to see my score reflect how well I hit the notes rather than seeing a score tank because I break combo 3 times instead of too.
  2. New HDHR - Wow, it's actually readable, thank you
In all honesty if this is never going to be used outside of tournaments and anyone who wants to toggle it on then I'd say this state is passable as a final release. If this is never going to affect casual play then basically disregard this post.

EDIT:
I discussed this with some people in #taiko and an idea that came up was to have both systems have their own kind of separate ranking system. Kind of like competitive and casual you see in most games today. That might actually be something cool to see come to osu, not just for this mode, but all modes.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Syphist wrote:

I still have some problems with the current system, as they do not reflect how taiko is supposed to play. I'll list them below.

  1. GOOD notes counting for 1/3 instead of 1/2 - it's far less punishing and a good middle ground to have it at 1/2, it's one of the reasons I prefer Taiko over STD, it puts way less pressure on perfection
  2. Some drum roll ticks being required and drum rolls counting towards combo - what, why? They were optional in the original game, and gimmick maps will suffer. This is just nonsensical no matter how I try to look at it
  3. Same as above but with spinners - this is also dumb. Why count extra points to the overall accuracy and combo? It takes away from the original game
All in all it feels like you are trying to make taiko play like the other modes, and it honestly isn't supposed to play like them.


Here is what I do like about the system though.

  1. Accuracy based score - OG Taiko scoring is nice, acc scoring sounds better. I'd like to see my score reflect how well I hit the notes rather than seeing a score tank because I break combo 3 times instead of too.
  2. New HDHR - Wow, it's actually readable, thank you
In all honesty if this is never going to be used outside of tournaments and anyone who wants to toggle it on then I'd say this state is passable as a final release. If this is never going to affect casual play then basically disregard this post.
Firstly, this is _not_ Taiko no Tatsujin. If you want to play TnT go play it, but our goal is not to remain loyal to the original game and copy it mechanic for mechanic.

Two of the three problems you've listed are non-issues - both changes to drum rolls and spinners add a deeper rhythmic sense to their mechanics. As far as I'm concerned this is not going away, however adjustments to the amount of ticks/spins required for 100s/300s can be considered.
roufou
Spinners are rhythmic?

Nah but the main problem I have with people arguing that osu!taiko isn't Taiko no Tatsujin say so for changes that makes osu!taiko less unique than other modes, generally. It seems more like trying to make osu!taiko unique by making it less unique and more similiar to other rhythm games, which is dumb and unecessary in my opinion.

My issue with ScoreV2 is that a lot of changes seem unecessary and honestly dumbed down to be more like other rhythm games.
Syphist

agu wrote:

Spinners are rhythmic?

Nah but the main problem I have with people arguing that osu!taiko isn't Taiko no Tatsujin say so for changes that makes osu!taiko less unique than other modes, generally. It seems more like trying to make osu!taiko unique by making it less unique and more similiar to other rhythm games, which is dumb and unecessary in my opinion.

My issue with ScoreV2 is that a lot of changes seem unecessary and honestly dumbed down to be more like other rhythm games.
Pretty much this. I could care less with the underlying score that's changed. It's when you make force it to be a game it was never meant to be. Also I agree, how are spinners even rhythmic? It's just spamming the alternating k and d as fast as possible. Another question, why is someone who has not actively played osu!taiko in 2 years spearheading the score change, shouldn't it be an active player that actually understands the game?
peppy
Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
Yuzeyun
My only worry for the far future is that sliders will slowly die out in favor of spinners, as there will be practically no reason to use them over spinners because of the fixed tick rate (for high or low BPM). While I'm not asking to have a fix right away for TWC, it would be nice to see if anything can be done about it later on.

I mean no one wants 1/4 25 BPM ticks :thinking:
Nwolf
slow songs in general are beyond rare in rhythm games, even more in taiko

I don't see sliders dying out either, as spinners end when the player completes aka not the song, while the slider still adds something rhythmic to the song, and also ends together with the song (as the mapper has intended). Most maps already use 1/4 tick sliders anyway, so that's not changing. I believe sliders won't become an endangered species in taiko, they will stay as uncommon as they are now.
Syphist

peppy wrote:

Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Syphist wrote:

peppy wrote:

Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Nope sorry, this thread is not for complaining about the "uniqueness" or the roots of taiko. Can you please stop mentioning this if you have nothing productive to say otherwise? Thanks. I will not be speaking of that topic henceforth.

And for the record I'm not designing the system myself.
Syphist

smoogipooo wrote:

Syphist wrote:

So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Nope sorry, this thread is not for complaining about the "uniqueness" or the roots of taiko. Can you please stop mentioning this if you have nothing productive to say otherwise? Thanks. I will not be speaking of that topic henceforth.

And for the record I'm not designing the system myself.
I was making suggestions on how to not make changes for the worse, instead you oversimplify my points and misrepresent what I'm trying to say. Honestly if you're not going to listen to what I have to say or take the time to create a proper response and instead dodge around the points it's not even worth my energy.
Gintoki8
I don't even understand why a new system have to come up(not everyone are competing as long as I know) and was pretty satisfied with the old one. Why a Mania copy?

But at least being able to play hidden + HR correctly feels so great OMG
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Gintoki8 wrote:

I don't even understand why a new system have to come up(not everyone are competing as long as I know) and was pretty satisfied with the old one. Why a Mania copy?

But at least being able to play hidden + HR correctly feels so great OMG
??????.???????? Mania copy? In what way? Please close your browser and never return to this thread.

I will be removing any further posts that derail the topic and don't provide any constructive feedback. Make your own thread if that's what you want to do.
Gintoki8
Hey that's just what it felt when the total score is 1M + if the HP bar come + the "everything count as a hit". That's it. But I don"t know the full details of the scoring system I was just giving my first impression so sorry if you took it the wrong way.
FlamingRok

Syphist wrote:

So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
While spinners and sliders are definitely required objects now, they are exactly what you said they should be. You have to hit a very small amount of the ticks at usual OD levels, and even at the highest, it's still less than half of the ticks, making the conditions to count them as a miss being rather low. Spinners were never a big issue and I'm more than certain many players were already completing or nearly completing the spinners to their entirety. This change does nearly nothing to spinners, other than importance.

Actually, my main concern is the fact that players new to Taiko might not be able to complete sliders accurately due to their nature of being similar to a mono-color stream. It seems like quite a step up from anything seen in a Kantan, Futsuu, or even Muzukashii for that matter. I understand that the percentage of required ticks reduce depending on the OD, but it still feels like it could be too intimidating for newcomers, and might isolate those who want to get into Taiko further. Spinners are fine, they require very few hits, and end as soon as all the hits are required, and even if you don't complete it, you're likely to get a 100 instead due to how quickly spinners can be completed. Though I will say, there is a sense of joy of getting points while hitting the spinner as opposed to only the end. A really simple fix to this is to award a small amount of points per hit, and then have the final hit be worth the most, like how again old Taiko has it, but still supporting the idea of ScoreV2 by not enough hits resulting in either a 100 or a miss. This would keep a sense of accomplishment to a spinner throughout rather than just the end of it, though this is a pretty minor point that I'm sure not everyone feels the same about.

There are a few solutions with the sliders I can think of right off the bat, all with their own benefits and downsides, though if the improvement of ScoreV2 continues the way that it has, it likely won't need any of this.

1. The easiest solution: just negate the possibility of sliders becoming a miss and instead have them contribute to or past the 1mil limit, similar to how old sliders were. The main downside to this of course is that beginners may neglect sliders too much, which can form bad habits, and it'd be reverting back to the old style of Taiko, though to some that might not be a bad thing. The benefit to this is that it would reward the more skilled players for fully hitting the sliders, whether it's to be able to hit that max score, or to even go beyond that max score.

2. Change the sliders to act similarly to how they work in original Taiko, but keep the percentage based sliders. This might seem odd, but if sliders could be introduced to players as "hit the drum as often as possible to clear the slider", it would be easier for newcomers to complete sliders. A few downsides to this is that it would kind of negate spinners to a certain extent, and points earned during the slider past the completion percentage might have to be awarded as bonus points, which might create a huge points inflation. Also, it would completely change how sliders had even acted before, which as we can tell from the osu! ScoreV2, people can go apeshit over this (for seemingly no reason?). However once again, this would reward skilled players for being able to rapidly hit the sliders compared to others, and could create new interesting mapping opportunities depending on who uses this to their benefit.

3. This has been added already to the minimal effect, but perhaps a slider hitting a repeat arrow could count as a tick mark, with how long the slider lasts being the exact same as how it is now. Currently you can make 1/3 tick mark sliders, which has pleased many people in the community, but why stop at 1/3 tick marks? Why not 1/1 or 1/2 tick marks for the beginners, or even 1/6 or 1/8 on the more difficult or point plentiful maps? Of course, the main disadvantage is if the beginners miss the tick marks on the 1/1 or 1/2 tick marks, there are less opportunities to save the slider, or if 1/6 or 1/8 sliders were used on beginner maps to try and give the player more opportunities, then the number of ticks required due to the percentage system would increase, which again makes it more difficult on the beginner players. However, with more tick mark options gives more creative opportunity to mappers, and more enjoyability can be delivered to players when used properly, as well as still rewarding the more skilled players for hitting all the tick marks in a slider.

These were just a few ideas, and none of them really have to be used of course. I can confidently say that I am looking forward to the future of ScoreV2 after the consistent listening to the ideas of the community rather than shutting them out. Thank you for the continuous work on osu! and ScoreV2.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
I agree that the way spinners and sliders work with Scorev2 currently may be confusing for beginners. I am tending towards your second suggestion for both sliders and spinners.
karterfreak
Not sure if I like the above idea especially if mashing awards bonus points. While it works that way in TnT, on a PC version of the game it'd open up access to bonus points for players who may use not so legit means to mash out those sliders...Unless I'm misunderstanding?
Edgar_Figaro

Tasha wrote:

Not sure if I like the above idea especially if mashing awards bonus points. While it works that way in TnT, on a PC version of the game it'd open up access to bonus points for players who may use not so legit means to mash out those sliders...Unless I'm misunderstanding?
Yeah I think that was the entire reasoning behind why sliders were designed differently from TnT in Osu. Also I like how sliders are rythmic and just letting them be like a spinner with infinite count (without notelocking on spinners I can easily get multiple times the current value just by spamming my keys) which would be way too overvalued in points. Especially for the larger finisher sliders
FlamingRok
Honestly I wasn't thinking spinners were un-intuitive towards beginners, just unsatisfying as a whole, though being able to hit spinners with any keys to complete them might also work really well for the beginners. Remember that all options of sliders will always gain some negativity from certain crowds of people. If we're talking the second option, you're trading away possible legitimacy for an easier to understand system for beginners, with the first option, you're reverting back to the old way, which from what I can see ScoreV2 is trying not to do and can form bad habits, and with the third option, less or more tick marks could be just as intimidating as the other to beginners. However, I do agree that this second option could be very unbalanced if not handled correctly (despite mentioning it, you end up seeing flaws in your own ideas eventually). Here's just a few more thoughts off the top of my head for the second option.

1. Put a cap onto slider bonus points. The main problem there is that it's essentially a spinner now, except you can hit any keys. Perhaps it'd make more sense to turn the spinners into this rather than sliders. However, this would reduce point inflation, and solve that issue.

2. Make bonus points on sliders worth less and less the more the slider is hit, kinda like a root, log, ln, etc. function. Whether this is the best option is really up to debate, as it might make sliders seem...odd. However, this too would reduce point inflation to the point where eventually hitting the sliders is literally worth nothing. I imagine this value would be rather high so only cheaters/really effective mashers would encounter this. It'd still keep it friendly and easy to understand to the beginners at the cost of some competitiveness on the scoreboards.

(I mean personally out of all the options I do like the third one the best due to the versatility, accessibility, and creativity, but that's besides the point) Again, with every system there are issues, specifically with allowing beginners to get into the gamemode, as if the basic mechanics are too intimidating, it makes it very difficult for beginners to want to get into the game. Standard, Catch the Beat, and even Mania all have simple mechanics that are easy to understand at first or second glace (sliders are click and hold, spinners are rotate rapidly for standard, move the character to the fruit in catch the beat, and hit the corresponding key in mania, holding if its a long note). If players become curious and check out a gamemode like Taiko but then are confused at first, second, and even third glance at how they should complete it, or if the mechanics are clear, but difficult to accomplish (like the current sliders), they'll quickly leave and check out some other gamemode or just return to standard. There's no reason to be this elitist group of people.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Regardless I don't think any more changes are going to come in at this point as we are preparing for the beginning of TWC. Thank you all for your assistance in the past weeks, we'll be back soon :)
Chando
i hope scorev2 have ranked board xd
gemiplus
I strongly dislike changing the HP system, nor do I think that we should require finishers to be done with with two keys.
People will die on one stream in Taiko if they mess up part way. The chance of the happening and the penalty don't match up. Granted I didn't try the HP change as it was already reverted.

Finishers with two keys is very difficult for Standard convert maps. Unless we plan to unrank all converts (which I wouldn't be opposed to) I don't think we should change the finishers to break combo or cause miss. Even then I wouldn't recommend changing them. Increasing the score they give for hitting them successfully is alright but it's whatever.

Drum roll change. I supposed it's alright. I thought Drum roll was pretty useless in the previous system.
Spinner change is alright I guess.

The 1 million limit is alright. I don't see it as necessary, but not unwelcome either. I don't dislike the change just indifferent. I'm not entirely sure what sort of changes it will bring to the scoring system, but I can't see them being negative.

Kiai Time change? I'm learning towards Kiai time existing but only impacting the base score rather than the multiplier that the combos will give.
300*Kiai multiplier + combo multiplier. Hopefully it's like that.


Though I think that the scoring should be ***less combo based***. Which I'm really happy about in ScoreV2
Trying out the new changes, this is a HUGE difference. I really really like how much less combos influence score in ScoreV2.
:D

There's no limit to increasing score based on combo, right? I still want to be kept, but at least it is standardized under the 1 million limit so I guess it's not that bad. Acc matters so much more now.

EDIT: I had a huge write up on combo based scoring but I think mixed up Standard and Taiko changes.
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