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Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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CaptainAhab_old
Nofool
Sooo it's 4:3 players turn to get fucked? Not sure why you dont keep both resolutions but Im not gonna register for that single reason and might not be the only one doing so. Idk if your plan is to get even less people participating but if so then yea sure keep going :roll:

v edit : "make 16:9 the reference solution", well if thats not the case dont write it then???
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Nofool wrote:

Sooo it's 4:3 players turn to get fucked? Not sure why you dont keep both resolutions but Im not gonna register for that single reason and might not be the only one doing so. Idk if your plan is to get even less people participating but if so then yea sure keep going :roll:
Not sure what you mean by this? How does this affect anything for 4:3 players? The only thing this affects is 16:9 players being forced to 4:3 with HDHR.
Niko-nyan
uhm any plan to make the scorev2 to fallback too? It's quite ridiculous that old pc can't use scorev2 (but long long ago i tried scorev2 on ctb on fallback or so D: ). Sadly i can't check the new ScoreV2 update. I will keep my eyes on the discussion as well. :/
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Niko-nyan wrote:

uhm any plan to make the scorev2 to fallback too? It's quite ridiculous that old pc can't use scorev2 (but long long ago i tried scorev2 on ctb on fallback or so D: ). Sadly i can't check the new ScoreV2 update. I will keep my eyes on the discussion as well. :/
Not for the time being no. It's made specifically for the TWC right now, which fallback players will not be able to participate in anyway.
Loctav
The changelog is a bit confusingly written, so you probably want to stick to the opening post and read up the changes there. Regarding finishers, I did the math (as promised) and we figured that breaking combo impacts score too hefty along with the bonus multiplier, so we came up with an alternative solution (thanks to ZiRoX) that just scales the multiplier. The impact on score for ignoring finishers would still be pretty hefty.

Making them not combo break is still not really my favorite, but for now, it's the best solution.
BabySnakes
The finishers having bigger impact is a problem in the current play system. It's not better than breaking combos when not hitting both sides, it's just different.
Finishers having bigger impact will mean that people will avoid them at all in every single play in the current pp system since only the top score play matters and people will purposely not hit the finishers since it won't break the combo and will give them another way to secure, in the future a better score that wields more pp.
This backfires on pp players since score is not weighted, only if you want to farm top 50's and for championships.
(Assuming score v2 completely replaces score v1)
Suggestion: Let the play that wields more pp count instead of the one with most score (They already did this with different mods)


Is the HR supposed to be weaker in score v2? 'Cause that seems the case.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

babysnakes wrote:

Is the HR supposed to be weaker in score v2? 'Cause that seems the case.
Weaker in which sense?

And to the rest of your post: This thread is not for discussing pp and rankings.
Loctav

babysnakes wrote:

The finishers having bigger impact is a problem in the current play system. It's not better than breaking combos when not hitting both sides, it's just different.
Finishers having bigger impact will mean that people will avoid them at all in every single play in the current pp system since only the top score play matters and people will purposely not hit the finishers since it won't break the combo and will give them another way to secure, in the future a better score that wields more pp.
This backfires on pp players since score is not weighted, only if you want to farm top 50's and for championships.
(Assuming score v2 completely replaces score v1)
Suggestion: Let the play that wields more pp count instead of the one with most score (They already did this with different mods)


Is the HR supposed to be weaker in score v2? 'Cause that seems the case.

smoogipooo wrote:

Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.
BabySnakes
I was just saying what changing finishers would imply.

About the HR:





Might give some trouble to people who were used to the old HR
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

babysnakes wrote:

About the HR:
Well spotted, thanks. A patch for it is currently being reviewed.
BabySnakes
By the way, the health bar flashes full for a couple of times until the map actually starts.
Yuzeyun
i like how apparently hardware issues aren't a problem for finishers

just throwing that here
BabySnakes
Even though the new finishers might impact those with hardware issues, you're doing it properly for tournament play... But achieving the complete opposite on normal plays.
Yuzeyun
so i played around with hr scorev2 on a 2002 note map (all circles, has big notes) and i lost points upon getting 100s and misses

is this intended behaviour
Nwolf
yes
Yuzeyun
at least it has the merit of being a very concise answer LOL

edit:

smoogipooo wrote:

Finisher second key hits now award between 3 and 10 times (linear scale) the amount of points of a normal hit as bonus points, dependent on the number of finishers in the beatmap. In this way a beatmap with less than or equal to 30 finishers will award 10 times the amount of points, and a beatmap with 120 or more finishers will award 3 times the amount of points.
bolded the one thing that confuses me

map has 114 finishers, around 900 combo i get ~500 score for a normal note and ~860 for a big note. assuming 3x (we're close to 120 after all), we're at ~360, which is 120 per note. does that mean the note value is originally 120?

also i made a joke map with only one D to test and had 3 million score somehow, which is weird for a map with much less than 30 finishers. should it be 10 million in this case?
xEchoAlertx
I'm not at all a fan of the reduced scroll speed for HR. Being able to play 260+ bpm, as HR currently is, is immensely satisfying and takes a great deal of practice to master. As I've been playing with scorev2, 280bpm is a total joke to read. Most of the difficulty of the mod -- and, to my mind, all of its charm and fun -- comes from the significantly increased scroll speed. I can understand if a change were implemented that would make higher bpms more readable (say, tapering off scroll speed as bpm increased) but the scroll speed on lower bpm stuff is, to my eyes, slow enough as to be unreadable. That isn't Hard Rock. I have absolutely no interest in seeing any change in the mod, and the only concession I'd be willing to make would be the parenthetical one above. Don't turn HR into "nomod with extra OD."

Edit: Hmm, seems that this is being addressed! Thank you!
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Thanks all for your comments on HR. This was a bug and has now been fixed on Beta/Cutting Edge.
Loctav
The cap should be 1 million in any case. I think something in the calculation is not working as intended, especially since the finisher changes.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Fixed!
Luna
Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but there is an issue with HDHR on widescreen.
I love the fact that HDHR is playable now, but right now it's way harder on widescreen because it still uses the accelerated/widescreen-adjusted HR scroll speed while also cutting off part of the track for HD. This makes the effective scroll speed way higher than the same mod combination on 4:3
If HDHR cuts the track to 4:3, it also needs to adjust the scroll speed back down to 4:3 HR levels.
karterfreak
Seconding the above post.
k3v227
I also agree with Luna. I noticed this right away put couldn't put it into words lol. For example: trying to read, not even play, but read Renatus HDHRDT on 16:9 is absolutely impossible :cry:
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Fixed.
yuki_momoiro722
Definitely YES For me :)

But anyways, there's no Score V2 .png skinning. Where is it imo?
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Should be there. Have you tried selection-mod-scorev2.png?
CaptainAhab_old

SteveOsu420 wrote:

Definitely YES For me :)

But anyways, there's no Score V2 .png skinning. Where is it imo?
Forgive my ignorance, but what is meant by this?
darkmiz

CaptainAhab wrote:

SteveOsu420 wrote:

Definitely YES For me :)

But anyways, there's no Score V2 .png skinning. Where is it imo?
Forgive my ignorance, but what is meant by this?
the mod icon, like selection-mod-nofail.png for nofail
Syphist
I still have some problems with the current system, as they do not reflect how taiko is supposed to play. I'll list them below.

  1. GOOD notes counting for 1/3 instead of 1/2 - it's far less punishing and a good middle ground to have it at 1/2, it's one of the reasons I prefer Taiko over STD, it puts way less pressure on perfection
  2. Some drum roll ticks being required and drum rolls counting towards combo - what, why? They were optional in the original game, and gimmick maps will suffer. This is just nonsensical no matter how I try to look at it
  3. Same as above but with spinners - this is also dumb. Why count extra points to the overall accuracy and combo? It takes away from the original game
All in all it feels like you are trying to make taiko play like the other modes, and it honestly isn't supposed to play like them.


Here is what I do like about the system though.

  1. Accuracy based score - OG Taiko scoring is nice, acc scoring sounds better. I'd like to see my score reflect how well I hit the notes rather than seeing a score tank because I break combo 3 times instead of too.
  2. New HDHR - Wow, it's actually readable, thank you
In all honesty if this is never going to be used outside of tournaments and anyone who wants to toggle it on then I'd say this state is passable as a final release. If this is never going to affect casual play then basically disregard this post.

EDIT:
I discussed this with some people in #taiko and an idea that came up was to have both systems have their own kind of separate ranking system. Kind of like competitive and casual you see in most games today. That might actually be something cool to see come to osu, not just for this mode, but all modes.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Syphist wrote:

I still have some problems with the current system, as they do not reflect how taiko is supposed to play. I'll list them below.

  1. GOOD notes counting for 1/3 instead of 1/2 - it's far less punishing and a good middle ground to have it at 1/2, it's one of the reasons I prefer Taiko over STD, it puts way less pressure on perfection
  2. Some drum roll ticks being required and drum rolls counting towards combo - what, why? They were optional in the original game, and gimmick maps will suffer. This is just nonsensical no matter how I try to look at it
  3. Same as above but with spinners - this is also dumb. Why count extra points to the overall accuracy and combo? It takes away from the original game
All in all it feels like you are trying to make taiko play like the other modes, and it honestly isn't supposed to play like them.


Here is what I do like about the system though.

  1. Accuracy based score - OG Taiko scoring is nice, acc scoring sounds better. I'd like to see my score reflect how well I hit the notes rather than seeing a score tank because I break combo 3 times instead of too.
  2. New HDHR - Wow, it's actually readable, thank you
In all honesty if this is never going to be used outside of tournaments and anyone who wants to toggle it on then I'd say this state is passable as a final release. If this is never going to affect casual play then basically disregard this post.
Firstly, this is _not_ Taiko no Tatsujin. If you want to play TnT go play it, but our goal is not to remain loyal to the original game and copy it mechanic for mechanic.

Two of the three problems you've listed are non-issues - both changes to drum rolls and spinners add a deeper rhythmic sense to their mechanics. As far as I'm concerned this is not going away, however adjustments to the amount of ticks/spins required for 100s/300s can be considered.
roufou
Spinners are rhythmic?

Nah but the main problem I have with people arguing that osu!taiko isn't Taiko no Tatsujin say so for changes that makes osu!taiko less unique than other modes, generally. It seems more like trying to make osu!taiko unique by making it less unique and more similiar to other rhythm games, which is dumb and unecessary in my opinion.

My issue with ScoreV2 is that a lot of changes seem unecessary and honestly dumbed down to be more like other rhythm games.
Syphist

agu wrote:

Spinners are rhythmic?

Nah but the main problem I have with people arguing that osu!taiko isn't Taiko no Tatsujin say so for changes that makes osu!taiko less unique than other modes, generally. It seems more like trying to make osu!taiko unique by making it less unique and more similiar to other rhythm games, which is dumb and unecessary in my opinion.

My issue with ScoreV2 is that a lot of changes seem unecessary and honestly dumbed down to be more like other rhythm games.
Pretty much this. I could care less with the underlying score that's changed. It's when you make force it to be a game it was never meant to be. Also I agree, how are spinners even rhythmic? It's just spamming the alternating k and d as fast as possible. Another question, why is someone who has not actively played osu!taiko in 2 years spearheading the score change, shouldn't it be an active player that actually understands the game?
peppy
Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
Yuzeyun
My only worry for the far future is that sliders will slowly die out in favor of spinners, as there will be practically no reason to use them over spinners because of the fixed tick rate (for high or low BPM). While I'm not asking to have a fix right away for TWC, it would be nice to see if anything can be done about it later on.

I mean no one wants 1/4 25 BPM ticks :thinking:
Nwolf
slow songs in general are beyond rare in rhythm games, even more in taiko

I don't see sliders dying out either, as spinners end when the player completes aka not the song, while the slider still adds something rhythmic to the song, and also ends together with the song (as the mapper has intended). Most maps already use 1/4 tick sliders anyway, so that's not changing. I believe sliders won't become an endangered species in taiko, they will stay as uncommon as they are now.
Syphist

peppy wrote:

Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Syphist wrote:

peppy wrote:

Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Nope sorry, this thread is not for complaining about the "uniqueness" or the roots of taiko. Can you please stop mentioning this if you have nothing productive to say otherwise? Thanks. I will not be speaking of that topic henceforth.

And for the record I'm not designing the system myself.
Syphist

smoogipooo wrote:

Syphist wrote:

So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Nope sorry, this thread is not for complaining about the "uniqueness" or the roots of taiko. Can you please stop mentioning this if you have nothing productive to say otherwise? Thanks. I will not be speaking of that topic henceforth.

And for the record I'm not designing the system myself.
I was making suggestions on how to not make changes for the worse, instead you oversimplify my points and misrepresent what I'm trying to say. Honestly if you're not going to listen to what I have to say or take the time to create a proper response and instead dodge around the points it's not even worth my energy.
Gintoki8
I don't even understand why a new system have to come up(not everyone are competing as long as I know) and was pretty satisfied with the old one. Why a Mania copy?

But at least being able to play hidden + HR correctly feels so great OMG
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